Public Works Cte Minutes 07-20-1988 • -
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Roger J. Go tz, Chair
M INUTES OF PUBLIC WORKS MEETING
July 20, 1988 - City Council Chambers
PRESENT: Roger J. Goswitz, Chair
Councilmember Tom Dimond
Councilmember Janice Rettman -
Counciimember Kiki Sonnen
ABSENT: Councilmember Bob Long
Councilmember James Scheibel
Councilmember Bill Wilson
�1THER FRESENT: Bruce Hoheisel, Stephen Wilson, Katherine Turnbull, John
Maczko, Dan Dunford, Chris Nicosia, Kathryn DeSpiegelaere,
Scott Heiderich, JoAnn Haberman.
This was a Committee of the Whole Meeting to discuss the Light Rail
Transit issue and was scheduled to start right after the HRA meeting at
approximately 10:00 A.M. The HRA meeting, however, lasted longer than
expected and this meeting did not start until about 11:15 A.M.
Chairman Goswitz requested that Steve Grochala from PED review what was
• previously discussed. Mr. Grochala said this meeting is a follow-up to
the meeting last week where there was a series of presentations and
cort�nents from the Community Councils. Some issues discussed were
preferences for various alignments, coneerns about the timing of
decision-making, and a need for more time to study this issue.
Jo Haberman, representing the Merriam Park Community Council, said that
the Executive Committee is asking that the City Councit assume the role
of advocate for adequate citizen input and that they help the County to
understand more about how the Community Councils operate so they can have
a more adequate process of citizen input. She also complimented Steve
Grochala on doing an excellent job.
In answer to Councilmember Sonnen's question if the Community Council
office receives notices of Ramsey County Rail Authority meetings, Ms.
Haberman replied that they were mostly dependent on Steve Grochala to
keep them up to date on this issue.
Councilmember Sonnen asked if it would be in order to pass a motion that
the Committee send a letter to the Ramsey County Rail Authority asking
them to notify all 19 community councils of their meetings and to enclose
a listing of the corrnnunity councils with their addresses. The Chair
�agreed this was a good idea and suggested that notices also be sent to
the Councilmembers.
• Mr. Grochala noted that Kathy DeSpiegelaere and himself will be meeting
and that-the RCRA is interested in expanding and finding the right avenue
for citizen participation. He will make available a package proposal of
meeting notifications and approaches to the District Councils. He does
receive RCRA meeting notices and will pass them on to interested parties.
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�:� {lli1E � i 1 m�m�?t Sr�nnen m�ved that they act on the mot i on that the Comm i ttee •
send a letter to the Ramsey County Rail Authority asking them to notify
the 19 community councils of their meetings. She commented that
Commissioner Finley and Commissioner McCarty have been to community
council meetings but that it should be more systematic.
Scott Heiderich, 1996 Portland, spoke of the difficulties of attending
ail the various meetings and said it would be helpful to community
councils to receive minutes of the meetings. The Chair assured Mr. -
� Heiderich that minutes will be sent to the community councils.
Mr. Heiderich went on to say that he served as an alternate to the
Corridor Task Force which made cost estimates for the University Avenue 1
mile, the 1/4 mile as well as the 3/8 and 1/2 mile stations. He thinks
that the engineering study will address the business concerns. He spoke
on a number of problems associated with the selection of the BN Southern
line and said two parallel corridors 11 or 12 blocks apart could not both
develop and felt the University Avenue line wouid decline. The BN
southern line has less residents and will not serve the University Avenue
corridor. He brought up a number of other concerns he felt should be
addressed including what happens to LRT when it gets downtown. He also
said he thought Hennepin Co�nty should be more involved. He believes the
decision-making process is going too fast and if it doesn't slow down, he
would recommend the University Avenue engineering study. He added that
John Finley has done a fine job headlining this and getting it going and •
he hopes federal funds will be available to fund LRT.
Councilmember Dimond asked if University Avenue is chosen who is going to
use it and Mr. Heiderich responded that the BRW report and previous Metro
Council reports identi the people who use �RT the most are those who
make partial journeys. Other people who would use LRT are those
currently using mass transit and those currently driving because their
cars are more efficient.
Katie Turnbull of the Regional Transit Board spoke on the different
markets served by LRT. Councilmember Sonnen asked about bus interfaces
and bus patronage figures and asked if the BN southern line would finance
itself. Ms. Turnbuli answered that the BN southern line is a feasible
alternative and that none of the lines would totally pay for themselves.
Councilmember Sonnen asked if the BN southern line, from a planning and
financial analysis point of view, is more preferable than the University
line. Steve Grochala said that certain markets wouid be better served on
one line than another, and referred to page 17 and page 20 of the
Regional Transit Board report. Ms. Sonnen then asked what wouid happen
to the 16A busline if the BN southern line is chosen and Mr. Grochala
.said they have done a number of background bus systems that would work
with LRT.
Ms. Sonnen commented that people are confused as to what is going to be •
changed if LRT goes on the BN southern line. Katie Turnbull explained
that bus feeder systems have been developed from each alternative and she
will provide this information to them.
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• Mr. Grochala added that the Regional Transit Board has a video about
various LRTs around the country. St. Paul has a high ridership compared
to Portland and San Diego. George Isaacs from RTB can supply information
about ridership on various LRTs throughout the country, he said.
The Chair gave examples of personal experiences he has had riding LRTs
in the United States. He compared Washington D.C.'s LRT ridership cost
of $.75 to a$10 to $15 fare to take a cab from the airport to downtown
Washington. .
Steve Grochala presented the Planning Commission recommendation and
resolution. He said the Commission's focus and planning staff focus has
been in terms of goals and objectives to support transit improvement
where they see that opportunity. They have shown a strong bias towards
University Avenue. The second page of the Planning Commission's
resolution adds to a long list of issues that need to be addressed. Line
selection tends to be abstract from the neighborhood groups' perspective.
lt's easier to pick an alignment and try to make it work, it tends to
become more concrete then. They have not overcome this hurdle yet. The
Commission's feeling is that they need to make a selection now to do a
preliminary engineering study to resolve capacity and accessibility
issues and if they can't be resolved not to choose University Avenue.
The County has done a good job involving citizens. Mr. Grochala suggested
that language be added to the resolution to involve citizen
• participation.
Councilmember Sonnen thought that this was a good approach, but she was
concerned about the message the County Board is giving in supporting the
BN southern line. She recommended that they adopt a resolution that
supports an engineering study of the BN's li�e as long as it includes a
mini environmental impact statement on University Avenue. She thinks the
County Rail Authority is going to pick the BN line regardless of what the
City Council recortxnends. If the County picks the BN line, she added,
what the Council needs to do as part of the engineering study, is to make
sure that there is public discussion and information shared on the
effects on University Avenue and their businesses in the future.
Councilmember Rettman said that not only is the County considering the BN
line, but so is she. She is not comfortable with the resolution in front
of them endorsing the Midway Corridor. She would rather have a
comprehensive resolution that still inciudes the BN southern line.
Councilmember Dimond said that they have narrowed it down to two
corridors and it would be a mistake to take the BN line by itself. It
seems the University Avenue line is the most probable. He also said the
decision should be made from a regional perspective, not intending to be
.derogatory to Commissioner Finley. The Council should not be forced to
make decisions that are rushed or improper because of actions made by
Hennepin County, he added. They need to look at a lot of different
options. He would like to see a rule encouraging regional planning.
• Councilmember Sonnen said while she agreed with a number of points
Councilmember Dimond made, they still don't have the luxury of looking at
two lines because of the engineering costs involved.
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Steve Grochala said he thought that the costs would be fairly reasonable
to do two engineering studies. He also thought it would be possibie to
explore some of the specific issues without going to full engineering.
The Chair said, in his opinion, it would be a good idea to explore
specific issues before incurring engineering costs. Kathy DeSpiegelaere,
Ramsey County office, said that the costs would be reasonable to do
preliminary engineering studies on two corridors because they are not at
the point of doing detailed engineering. The cost of doing preliminary �
engineering on the two corridors would be significantly less than $14
Million Dollars, but she doesn't have an exact figure. Three years ago,
she said, the Regional Transit Board estimated the cost for the 10 mile
University Avenue corridor to be $3-1/2 Million Dollars for an
engineering study.
Mr. Grochala said he would estimate $5 Million Dollars for an engineering
study of both corridors because in his opinion some of the work would be
duplicative. Ms. Sonnen commented that an engineering study on
University Avenue will cost more than on the BN southern line. She also
said what happens to LRT when it reaches downtown is significant.
The Chair asked if it was the wish of the Committee to submit a
resolution that includes both studies. Councilmember Rettman remarked
that the County and the LRT Board have the call and we are only auxiliary •
and that they would be wise not to limit their scope. The Chair said Mr.
Finley who is in charge of the County selection process would do well to
heed the wishes of the rest of the people in the County and not just
consider the BN southern line. Councilmember Dimond said he was nervous
about spending millions of dollars and would recommend the University
Avenue Corridor. •
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to recommend the University Avenue
Corridor. Vote was 2-2 - Councilmembers Goswitz and Dimond
voting for the motion, and Councilmembers Sonnen and Rettman
voting against it. .
Meeting adjourned: 12:15 P.M.
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