Public Works Cte Minutes 09-28-1988 �.� o ��
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Janice Rettman, Actinq Chai �
MINUTES OF PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
September 28. 1988 - Room 707 City Hait
PRESENT: Councilmember Janice Rettman
Councilmember Tom Dimond
Councilmember James Scheibel
ABSENT: Councilman Roger Goswitz (excused)
OTHERS PRESENT: Dennis Grogan, John Cullen, John Saumweber, Tom Keefe,
Rose Hallgren, Mary Prior, Art Seebach, W. F. Jones, Adrienne
Lamson, Vernon Kortz, Elaine M. Wagner, Frank Richards, Beatrice _
G. Bogusky, Linden lund, Bruce Hoheisel. Steve Zaccard, Jo
Haberman, Beth Berg, Chris Nicosia, Peter White. Paul St. Martin,
Dick McCann, Larry Lueth, Marv Sorvala, John McCormick.
1. The minutes of September 14. 1988 were approved as submitted.
2. FINAL ORDER: Condemning and taking permanent utility easements for
the MARSHALL/HAMLINE AREA SEWER SEPARATION PROJECT. Also, permanent
and temporary construction easements. _
• Peter White, Valuations Division, explained an addition will be made
to the existing sewer easement behind the Midway Shopping Center and
there will also be a temporary easement. Included in this order are a
couple of easements near Dunniung Field where there is an existing
sewer easement and a temporary easement wiil aiso be needed here.
Mr. White pointed out there is a slight change from the original. .
order and sugqested the Committee recommend approval as amended.
The amended Order will be ready for the Council hearing.
Chris Nicosia, Department of Public Works, responding to the question
raised previously on what effect this project would have on deliveries
to the shopping center said he checked with TKDA and the pipe to be
laid will not require a deep cut and they don't anticipate any
problems. In answer to Councilmember Rettman's question, Peter White
said the estimated cost for the easement is $30,000. No one appeared.
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to recommend approval as amended was
unanimously carried.
3. FINAL ORDER: Condemning and taking an easement on the east side of
BIDWELL STREET from E. Annapolis Street to E. Winona for slopes, cuts
an fills for the qradin4 and pavinq of Bidwell Street
Peter White, Valuations Division, asked that this item be withdrawn
because it is not necessary at this time. The street is pretty much
• done and slope easements are not needed, he said. No one appeared.
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to recortmend matter be withdrawn was
unanimously carried.
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4. FINAL ORDER: Removing and replacing of illegally installed curb,
restoring street and boulevard areas, constructing concrete driveway
apron and possible removal of 3 boulevard trees. Property located at
1349 Midway Parkwav
Tom Keefe. Sidewalk Engineer, stated the property owner installed a
curb without benefit of a permit and in violation of many standards
and specifications. Our proposal is to remove the curb, return the
boulevard and street to its prior condition. The trees will not be
disturbed at this time, he added.
Mr. Jones, owner of 1349 Midway Parkway. said after being frustrated
with parking from the State Fair and Como Park and watching other
neighbors put in curbs within the last year and a half. in April he .
decided to put in the curb to simply protect the sod and dirt and to
keep the people from parking on the sidewalk and also to save the tree
from being damaged. The other curbs were constructed using timbers,
concrete, rocks, etc. He said when he had cailed the city to see what
couid be done he was told they would not do anythinq until sometime
early in 1990 wh?n this area comes up for im�rovernent. He added he is
now activelv involved with the Midway Task Force to help work out
their problems. At the time he installed the curb he said he was not
aware a permit was required and while he was working on it he got help
. on the layout from two Public Works individuals who told him to call
when the curb was in. It was at this paint that Mr. Keefe came out
and told him he would have to remove the curb.
Mr. Jones said he realizes the curb was put in illegally and knows
it will have to be taken out when the street is redone in two years
but since he has paid the penalty he asked that the curb be left in
place until that is done.
Councilmember Dimond commented it's hard to be too critical when
someone puts in that much effort to fix up their �roperty. Both he and
Councilmember Scheibel suggested the curb remain in place until the
new street and curbing is put in since Mr. Jones does understand when
this is done his curb will come out and he will have to pay the whole
price. Mr. Keefe said in his opinion this would be setting a dangerous
precedent and if it is allowed in this instance where does it stop.
He suggested this question be referred to the Council.
John McCormick, City Attorney, said it is obvious this construction is
within the city right-of-way and was not done to specifications or
designs and is certainly not uniform. The bottom line, he said, is is
it a safety hazard or nuisance or does it obstruct the flow of sewer
water in the area in its present state. If staff determines it is not
a nuisance, then it is up to the Council to make the determination.
Mr. Keefe said it is not negative in the way of drainage, the only
negative is public safety involved and that should be addressed.
� Mr. McCormick asked Mr. Keefe if he thought leaving this curb in would
effect his ability to enforce these regulations in the future and he
again said he felt this would be setting a bad precedent.
The question of liability in case of accident was discussed. Mr.
McCormick asked if Mr. Keefe knew of any cases where the city had been
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sued because of this tyPe of construction and Mr. Keefe said he was
not aware of any such suit. Both Councilmembers Scheibel and Dimond
agreed as long as they are advised there is no public safety factor
involved, the curb should be left as is at this point as long as Mr.
Jones knows the curb will have to come out in a few years and he wili
be assessed for that project.
Councilmember Dimond moved to deny the order but then suggested
supporting it with the understanding it be done along with the regular
sewer separation project and in conjunction with Midway Parkway Task
Force recortxnendation.
Chris Nicosia, Public Works, asked Mr. McCormick if it would be wise
to have some kind of liability bond provided the city in case of any _
lawsuit that might occur. Mr. McCormick said that would be in order
and Councilmember Dimond suggested a motion to ask the City Attorney
to get together with Mr. Jones to see what coverage is needed. Mr.
Jones said he would check today to see what his coverage is and
suqgested meeting riqht at the site so they can see the situation
firsthand.
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to lay this item over for two weeks to
October 12, 1988 was unanimously carried.
• 5. FINAL ORDER: Improving IRVINE AVENUE between Sur�wnit Avenue and
Pleasant Avenue (includes upper Irvine Avenue between Surrmit and
Pleasant and lower Irvine Avenue between Ramsey Street and Pleasant
Avenue? by grading and paving, constructing curb and gutter, new catch
basins, new driveways, a green lantern style street lighting system,
new retaining walls and doing all other work recessary and incidentai
to said project. To be known as the IRVING AREA STREET PAVING AND
LIGNTING PROJECT.
AND
6. FINAL ORDER: Constructing the iRVINE AREA STORM SEWER PROJECT
(bounded on the north by Kellogg Blvd.; on the west by Su�nit Avenue;
on the south bv Ramsey Street and on the east bv Pleasant Avenue.
AND
7. FINAL ORDER: Constructing sanitary. storm and water service
connections, if requested by the property owner, for the combined
sewer project known as the IRVINE AREA STORM SEWER AND STREET PAVING
AND LIGHTING PROJECT.
Paul St. Martin, Public Works, said he is involved in the design of
the project and has had many meetings with the neighbors but there are
still a lot of issues that have not been resolved. This project was
initated as part of the CSSP program. He went through the
improvements proposed by Public Works and pointed out the issues that
have not been agreed on such as converting the overhead utilities to
an underground system, replacement of the retaining wall with keystone
• instead of limestone, installing a fence on the retaining wall with a
coated chain link fence, etc.
After hearing part of Mr. St. Martin's presentation, Councilmember
Scheibel said it appears no decision will be made today and he is
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concerned they are really far apart. He also said he felt this is a
very historic area in St. Paul and has some value and for that reason
he didn't think this project should be treated as a normal project but
should be looked at from a city perspective. Some of the areas he
suggested work on were: further dealings with NSP and Continental to
see if they would share some of the cost to bury the lines, retaining
wall and fence.
Councilmember Dimond said he did not think this design was at all
acceptable and suggested sending it back. Areas he was concerned about
were: retaining the existing wall whereever possible, where it can't
be done repair or replace it with the same material, utilities be
underground - NSP has been very cooperative with neighborhoods, he
said, and maybe some NPP money or grants could be obtained and there _
may have to be some assessments.
Vernon Kortz referring to 378 Summit Avenue asked if streets such as
Grand Avenue, Summit were not assessed and questioned whether this
should be a Summit or Irvine address. Peter Wh?te explained MSA
streets are well travzlled arter?al �±reets, arEd said they are not
assessed for roadway type improvements. When lookinq at the property
to be assessed, he said, we don't look at an address or building, but
look at the land. The improvement is benefit to the land and how it is
situated where land is abutting improvement.
• Karen Avaloz. 330 Irvine Avenue. said she has lived there 20 years and
thev never have had a street sign. She said she was prepared to go
. into the. plan and review all the"noints the neighbors feel are not
adequate oF does not serve their purpose. '
Councilmember Rettman pointed out that this item will not be acted on
today and Councilmember Dimond suggested rather than rescinding the
order that it be laid over in committee fnr further information.
Karen Avaloz continued and said there is no agreement with the sewer
separation project and they are concerned with the street design.
Their effort is to protect the urban setting; this area is one of the
oldest areas in town. We are not talking about one real short street,
but about a historical district. We are asking that the 90 ft. of the
wall that has to be replaced because of a washout be repaired with
limestone. We are asking that sewer covers and gutters be replaced
with the original granite and fiagstone. The biggest thing is the
conversion of utility lines, and while it is expensive, she said,
these issues have been resolved in other places. We question the wall
itself and the figures for replacing it and that being thrown into the
assessment project. Residents should not have to pay for what is
public property. Irvine Avenue, she continued, has never received any
kind of maintenance that other areas receive. The fence was never
mentioned at the meetings, we were promised and guaranteed design for
• crossover would be original design and we never agreed to brick
gutters. The HPC has recommended keeping the original materials for
this project. The Public Works Departrnent wa�ts to make these changes
because they say it is cost effective but they do not consider the
character of the neighborhood. Irvine Avenue should be treated with
the same dignity as Summit Avenue. We are being to)d we are asking
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for more than any other neighborhood but we are asking for what we
have waited a lonq time for and we need to meet with someone to work
out some of these things before any money is spent.
Elaine Wagner-„ 292 Irvine. said her family has lived on Irvine Avenue
since the turn of the century. She supports what Karen Avaloz has
said and is vitally interested in keeping the street as qreat as it
can be. The street isn't just for us but is used by walkers, joggers
and people from all over St.Paul. The main point she wanted to make
is that they care and want to do whatever they can to keep this a
historical area and are willing to look into getting grants or
whatever else they can do.
Linden Lund said he feels it would be more efficient and very _
important to have the utility lines underground. This area probably
has more power outages than any other part of town, he added.
Frank Richards, 358 Irvine, said he has talked to many neighbors and
believes these problems can be worked out.
Chris Nicosia, Public Works Dept., said they came prepared to listen
to neighbors and feel they have had honest negotiations with them. We
don't have any objections to the aesthetics in the area - it is the
cost factor. We have only so many dollars to take care of streets and
• have to treat all neighborhoods alike. We will be happy to go back
over this for another year or six months but it will then have to go
in under the 1990 program.
� ���MOTION: by�:�ouncilmember Qimond to Tay this mat�er..over ror two .� �� .
months and amend it so that it 'would include underground � '
utilities, repair and/or replace existing walls with
limestone in same design, replace crisscross as currently
designed and retain granite.
��In:answer�to Ms.Avaloz's questibn as to who they can deal with the get �
right information. etc., Chris Nicosia.said Paul St. Martin is in
charge of this project and is doing a good job so he would be the one
to meet with. Mr. St. Martin can also bring in anyone else that might
be needed to answer their questions.
Councitmember Rettman stated this matter wili be laid over for two
months and witl be updated at the November 30. 1988 meeting. Further,
that this project will be scheduled in 1990 instead of 1989.
8. FINAL ORDER: Constructing the CLEVELAND/POR7LAND AREA STORM SEWER
PROJECT (bounded by Surr�nit, Fairview, Marsha)1 and Exeter) (bounded by
Ialehart, Prior, St. Anthonv and Cretin).
AND
9. FINAL ORDER: Improve the following streets: (see next page for
• listing). To be known as the CLEVELAND/PORTLAND AREA STREET PAVING
AND LIGHTING PROJECT.
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10. FINAL ORDER: Constructing sanitary, storm and water service
connections, if requested by the pro�erty owner, for the combined
sewer separation project known as the CLEVELAND/PORTLAND AREA STORM
SEWER AND STREET PAVING AND LIGHTING PROJECT.
Peter White. Valuations Division, said a notice was sent to the people
which listed October 12th as the date for the Public Works Committee
meeting and said this matter should be laid over to that time. There
were a few people present on this matter and they were allowed to
speak at this time.
Dennis Grogan, 1946 Dayton Avenue, said they are requesting a variance
from the MSA standards for Prior Avenue for 32 ft. wide with parking
on one side only. _
Paul St. Martin, Public Works Dept., said when this was originaily
looked at P.W. felt the street should be ciassified as a low density
collector 34 ft. wide with parking on one side or 40 ft. wide with
parking on both sides. In discussions with MSA they classified it as
high density, 36 ft. wide parking on one side, or 44 ft. wide parking
on both sides. Two or three months ago a resolution was passed
authorizing us to ask for a variance if needed. We feel we will not
get a 32 ft. variance and do not want to upset our good relations with
the State.
• Councilmember Dimond said he is infuriated with MnDot when they
� mandate things for our neighborhoods when we are willing to tive with
.�� � . them. Thei r response _ i s.that you . asked: for.• thos� standards .and: we� are . �� .
� . � � . just . �cy.i ng �. .to , meet �he standards XQU want �and. i f. �you '�ant� .�th�m � . _. � � .
changed do it. The City has to have the flexibility to make those
determinations.
Molly 0'Rourke, Councilmember Sonnen's Aide, was asked to clarify the
� �� var.i ar�ce . req�est �: and she stated ;the.: .Co.un� i l di.d ;. pass a r.esa l�ut i.on .
asking for a varianee, but the problem is�it dtd not.gpec.ify what tfie � �
variance was. The neighborhood wants to continue to seek.a 32 ft.
variance, she said.
Beth , 1946 Portland, said the neighbors are concerned about the
traffic on Prior and asked if stop signs and a basketweave could be
done. Mr. St. Martin said he wouid ask the Traffic people to look
into this and to be present at the next meeting.
Jo Haberman, Merriam Park C.C., said some of the people had received a
notice saying that Roblyn between Howell and Ferdinand would just get
the paving for $17.00. They are upset because the other areas will
get everything, the new paving, curbs and gutters for $19.00. She
presented a petition signed by all but one person asking that they get
everything for $19.00 or that nothing be done as their paving is in
• good repair.
Peter White, after checking the order, said this whole block wili be
getting all the improvements. The information on the notice sent out
relating to the $17.00 ft. rate, that is for the two streets that have
existing curb and gutter in place that is in good shape and is not
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going to be removed {Selby - Cleveland to Howell and Temple Court -
Cretin to Roblyn.? Some discussion followed. This matter will be back
in front of the Committee on October 12th.
I1. VACATION: Petition of Jarnes Stolpestad for the vacation of part of the
alley in Walsh Park bounded by Edgcumbe Road, Albion. Lexington
Parkway, and Montreal for the purpose of residential development.
Laid over from 9/6/88).
Dick McCann, Valuations Division, explained Mr. Stolpestad has
withdrawn his request for this vacation.
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to withdraw the vacation was
unanimously carried. _
12. RESOLUTION: Approving stipulation agreement from Minnesota Pollution
Control Agency assessinq the penalty of $75,000 to the City for the
permit violati�n which occurred on or about May 28, 1987 to June 11,
1987. This was immediately corrected but not immediately reported to
the Minnesota Pollut Control Aqency. _ __ _
AND
13. RESOLUTION: Revise budget to pay the penalty assessed to the City by
Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, for Permit violation. The City's
Pro.ject Representative, Toltz, King, Duvall, Anderson 8 Associates
• will reimburse the City.
Laid over to October 12, 1988.
' 14.� MnDOT �presentation - Reconstructidn of I-94 in the vicinity �bf St.
Peter Street and Robert Street, including the reconstruction of three
bridqes and the 35 mph curve on I-94. _
Laid over to October l2, 1988.
15. Other. bUsiness. �Mary �Prior_ - DeSoto Street (Ar}ington-Arkwright
Project)
Chris Nicosia, Public Works. said at the assessment hearing Mr. 8 Mrs.
Prior raised some questions about the construction of DeSoto Street
and it was agreed their concerns would be discussed in Public Works
Committee and that the old sur records and engineering data would
be brought in. He then asked Larry Lueth from Public Works Department
and Marv Sorvala, consuitant on the project, to proceed with their
findings. The problem is with the driveway at 1528 DeSoto.
Larry Lueth referred to the survey readings on the original grading
plan of 1960 and also the surveys taken in 1986 which indicated a 6
inch difference, however, when we come in to regrade and pave we take
the highs and lows out of the street and it is routine for them to
• vary somewhat, 6 inches is not unusual. The real problem, he said, is
even if we raised the grade of the street 6 inches or a foot and a
half. the driveway slope is much higher than it should have been. We
couldn't provide a reasonable access to that driveway.
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Marv Sorvala showed pictures before and after and said when you
compare the boulevards you can see it is impossible for the street to
be 18 inches lower. MnDot recornmends a maximum siope for residential
driveways of 15% and that slope is almost 269..
Mary Prior showed pictures of the progress of their house and street
and had a friend RoseAnn present who said she used to be able to walk
up that hil but there is no way she could do that anymore. Mrs. Prior
presented petition signed by her neighbors indicating the street has
been lowered considerably, she had a letter from her excavator, one
from Eberhard Construction, one from State Repr Richard
0'Connor and one from Rose Anne 8 Lee Hallgren all relative to the
street being lowered more than it should have been.
Chris Nicosia, corr�nented that if the street was raised 18 inches it
wouid be as high as the people's basement windows on the west side of
the street and would cause reverse problems for them. He indicated
the Building tnspector was out there he mentioned that it appeared to
him to be mighty high and the answer he received was that it was such
a beautiful view from up there.
After much discussion, John McCormick, City Attorney said it appears
at this point the Priors feel they have been damaged by the city and
are askinq for a massive change in the structure of the street. They
. can either appeal the assessment or file a claim with the city or take
it to District Court. Mr. Prior stated it has never been a matter of
the assessment or the quality of the work. Mrs. Prior said they have
tried to stop construction at every point but could not.
Marv Sorvala again said any way you look at it the grade of the
driveway is almost impossible even if the street could be raised 1$
inches. Further discussion followed.
Chris Nicosia offered to give Mrs. Prior.copies of surveys or whatever.
other information they can or to meet with her architect to go over
these with him.
Meeting adjourned: 12:10.
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