Public Works Cte Minutes 10-26-1988 .-
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Roger�J. switz, Ch r
MINUTES OF PUB WORKS C OMMITTEE
October 26, 1988 - Room 707 City Hall
PRESENT: Roger J. Goswitz, Chair
Councilmember Tom Dimond
Councilmember Janice Rettman
OTHERS PRESENT: Bill Buth, Harvey 8 Virginia Dartt, Tom Kuhfeld, Paul St.
Martin, Joe Mueller, John Saumweber, Dick Sobiech, Bill Belden,
Bruce Hoheisel, Peter White, John McCormick, Chris Nicosia,
Sherrie Pemberton. Steve Thompson, Kevin Nelson, Art Werthauser.
Leon Pearson, Lt. Polski.
Because Councilmember Rettman was late in arriving it was decided to start
the meeting with discussion of Items 6, 7 and 8 because the majority of the
people in attendance were present for these items.
6. FINAI ORDER: Improve the following streets with a bituminous paving,
concrete curb and gutters, concrete driveways and outwalks,
constructing a green lantern style street lighting system and doing all
necessary work for the MARSHALL/HAMIINE (Part B) AREA STREET PAViNG AND �
LIGHTING PROJECT: Parts of Pascal, Asbury, Fry, Pierce,
� Carroll and Iqlehart.
AND
7. FINA� ORDER: Constructing the MARSHALL/HAMLINE (Part B) AREA STORM
SEWER PROJECT. (bounded more-or-less by Hamline Avenue on the East,
Marshall Avenue on the south, Fairview Avenue on the west and
Concordia Avenue on the northl.
AND
8. FINAL ORDER: Constructing sanitary, storm and water connections, if
requested by the property owner, for the combined sewer separation
project known as the MARSHALL/HAMLINE (Part B) AREA STORM SEWER AND
STREET PAVING AND LIGHTING PROJECT
Peter White. Valuations Division, explained this is a sewer separation
project in the Midway area and is the second phase of the
Marshall/Hamline project, Phase A has previously been approved. Both
Phase A and B will be constructed together. A neighborhood meeting was
held last Thursday, he said, and there were 25 to 30 people in
attendance. A number of questions were raised and most of them were
resolved. There were a couple specific problems that arose and
meetings have been set up to deal with those items. Dick Sobiech from
TKDA is present to answer any further questions, he added.
Harvey Dartt� 1463 Carroll, said he tives at the corner of Carroll &
Pascal and was given permission to connect to sewer on Pascal even
though his house fronts on Carroll. He asked if when the new sewer is
put in if he would stiil be allowed to hook up to Pascal. Mr. Sobiech
from TKDA explained because of the deteriorated condition, the entire
main will be relaid on Carroll and Pascal but assured Mr. Dartt they
• would have no problem servicing him off Pascal.
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Mr. Sobiech went on to say a lot of the questions raised at the Public •
Information meeting were business related and at a special meeti�g
yesterday with the business community they indicated the street
!�esic�n. �arking &nd tr��v�l rl��F��tic� C:i�fl�t+��C�tjr��f �#t�}�H ��'1f�iE� iifs�l�1
concerns. Based on that meeting, hP said, what we would recommend, in
coordination with Public Works, would be the widening of Pascai to
allow parking on both sides of the street. This is a state aid
street. Original width was proposed at 36 ft. with parking on one
side. We now recommend a 4 ft. widening of Pascal from Marshall to
Concordia to a 40 ft. width with the widening to all take piace on the
east side towards the commercial and industrial properties. Because it
is a lower class traffic street, we can do that, he added. At the
present time there is angle parking and it is quite a safety hazard.
. Answering several questions of Councilmember Rettman, Mr. Sobiech said
the community supports the 40 ft. width, and that he has been dealing
with Moily 0'Rourke from Councilmember Sonnen's office. Based on the
discussion with her, hP said, she felt widening would satisfy the
concerns of both the business and the neighborhood. Her question of
whether new notices would have to go out because of the change in
st�eet width was answered by Mr. White who pointed out the notices just
talk about improvement of streets and don't get into specifics of
design.
Councilmember Rettman referred to the Summary of Engineering -
Recommendations and noted it stated Pascal would be constructed at 44 �
{ ft. Mr. Sobiech replied in the event the street goes to 44 ft. wide •
1 they would still suggest moving parking towards the commercial area.
Councilmember Dimond suggested before this proJect goes too far we
should look ahead and see where Ayd Mill Road fits into this since
there has been some ta)k about it coming through Pascal to hook up to
I-94. It would be unwise to make this improvement and then a year or
two later tear it up and rebuild again. He asked that before this
proiect goes into construction there should be some caveat that it
comes back to this Committee.
Chris Nicosia, Department of Public Works. remarked before bids go out
for const.ruction Public Works will be talking to MnDot to see what
their timetable is. If nothing is going to happen for 5 years or so,
then it would be best to do the work, however, if something will be
taking place in the next year or two then we should perhaps look at
holding up the project.
Tom Kuhfeld, Public Works Department, added that studies are being
conducted by the city that will result in a declsion on what, if
anything, will be done with Ayd Mill Road. One of the necessary steps
is going to be an EiS statement which will determine the effects of the
various alternates to be considered, among which is the possible
routing on Pascal. Those studies are going to take a considerable
length of time and in my ,judgment it will be sometime before we know
which alternate, if any� is selected. I would suggest that at the
beginning of next year we review the situation to see where we are at
and come back to the Council and ask for a decision to see if you want
to go ahead with the widening or just cut and patch. There are two •
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• SPwP}' S ��p i ng p��t i n F,�� r_�� 1��, tr�erA w 1 1 1 hP a s 1�n i f 1 cent amount of
disruption. If it is going to be 5 years before anything is done, my
recommendation is to go ahead with the lmprovement, he added.
Councilmember Rettman referred to the green lantern lighting and said
it appears we have two sets of standards and we have not determined
that to be a policy. My understanding was that the conxnitment made in
1985 under the original CSSP program was for bent straws and now it
seems the green lanterns are becoming an issue in certain areas. She
noted the subsidy for the green lanterns is $15.00 which comes out of
the general fund and requires maintenance which the bent straws do '
not. This is not fair to the other areas, and she added she would be
voting NO on everyone of these items unless a budget is set up to
support it.
. Mr. Kuhfeld agreed the program started out with bent straws but at
the request of various council members in an area where green lanterns
existed the gaps were filled in with green lanterns. As this program
developed some councilmembers have felt that green lanterns were
preferable and wanted the council to decide if those should be
installed. For those areas we have written up the orders to include
green lanterns because they are more expensive. The reason being is
that you can cut back an assessment at the hearing, but you can't
increase it. It is the City Council's decision which one to build.
Public Works' recommendation has always been for the bent straws, he -
added.
I• Councilmember Dimond said in his opinion the bent straws were a poor
choice to make and he agreed with the green lantern lighting, but did
not believe this was the time to change that policy. He noted the
� issue of how to deal with this problem had been referred to the
Planning Commission. He said he shared Councilmember Rettman's point
of fairness and equity and said neither the East Side or North End has
faired well in this. Green lanterns are a real amenity to those areas
that get them, but a real detriment to those communities that do not
get them. If one area gets them� he said, every area should clet them.
MOTION: by Councilmember Rettman to recommend approval of Items 6, 7
and 8 above, with the lighting to be bent straws except where
they alreadY exist was passed on 2-1 vote. Dimond voting N0.
Mr. Sobiech noted that on Roblyn from Concordia to Pascal where
redevelopment is going on there will be drive-over curb on both sides
to facilitate offstreet parking. This is consistent with meetings in
neighborhood, he said.
1. The minutes of October 12, 1988 were approved as submitted.
2. F1NAl ORDER: Constructing a public skyway bridge and support structure
connecting the First Trust Center (180 Fifth Street) and 333 on Sibley
Building and crossing to connect to the Block L/Minnesota Telecenter
complex currently under construction. Bridge to be
constructed across FOURTH STREET between Siblev and Jackson Streets.
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Steve Thompson, PED� explained this is a special assessment item. The •
skyway connection was a contractual obligation in the development of
KTCA as well as a major extension of our skyway system, particularly
to connect to the municipal ramp now operating on Block L to support
Lowertown. Balance of financing for this project has been previously
appropriated and this is the private sector share from First Trust and �
333 Sibley. 477. of total cost of additional offset of public costs of
the skyway bridge will come from sale of the additional site we have
on Block L. $l00,000 of the total public cost is intended to be
recaptured from sale of site. Total estimated cost of project is
$630,000 of which 63% is private, and 377. public after sale of site on
Block L.
Councilmember Dimond asked why city was not receiving money from
other two parcels and Mr. Thompson explained under agreement with the
HRA board KTCA was exempt from the skyway bridge and on the United Way
proposal this was fully discussed with HRA board and did not include
any cost for skyway because it was not a direct connection. They will
be sharing ongoing operation and maintenance costs on a monthly basis.
Councilmember Dimond cor�nented he didn't remember the city subsidizing
the skyway on United Way proiect and added he was frustrated with the
way public subsidy packages are being put together. We are sold on
what a great deal it is and told we will get x dollars back from the
project and when the package is put together we end up with only a few
bucks. I would not be at all surprised, he said� if when development
begins they don't come in asking for more money and say this project
really won't go unless we give them skyway for nothing or some other •
� kind of subsidy.
Answering Councilmember Rettman's several questions Mr. Thompson said
the skyway is a standard design and has been approved by HPC. It was �
not submitted to the Skyway Governance Committee because design was
submitted and approved prior to that committee being formed. This is
an extremely expensive skyway, in excess of $600,000 and the decision
to assess this private contribution substantially increased the amount
they are wiiling to contribute.
MOTION: by Counciimember Rettman to recommend approval was passed on
a 3-0 vote.
3. FINAL ORDER: Improve the following streets in the SYNDICATE/FAIRMOUNT
AREA STREET PAVING AND LIGHTING PROJECT. Parts of Saratoga, Pascal,
Albert, Syndicate, Griggs, Dunlap, Laurel, Portland, Lincoln,
Goodrich, Fairmount. Osceola, Saraent, St Clair and Oak Grove Place.
AND
. 4. FINAL ORDER: For constructing the SYNDICATE/FAIRMOUNT AREA STORM
SEWER ROJECT (bounded bv Snellinq, Marshall. Oxford, and Jefferson).
AND
5. FINAL ORDER: Constructing sanitary, storm and water service
connections, if requested by the property owner, for the combined sewer
separation pro.ject known as the SYNDICATE/FAIRMOUNT AREA STORM
SEWER AND STREET PAVING AND LIGHTING PROJECT.
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• Chris Nicosia. Public Works Department, stated a meeting was hetd last
evening in the neighborhood and was attended by 80 plus people. Most
of their concerns pertained to St. Clair widening. St. Clair will be
constructed at 40 ft. with widening of 2 ft. at bus stops, which will
allow us to receive MSA funds. Only a few small trees wili be
effected and those will be replanted. Another concern was that the �
work will be staged so that they can get in and out of the streets and
alleys. Councilmember Long attended this meeting and the peopie voted
almost unanimously in favor of the project. On St. Clair 40 people
voted in favor of the proposal. The Chair remarked it is his intention
to meet with the contractors and others involved to tighten up
scheduling and have better coordination of the work to be performed.
Councilmember Rettman referred to page 4 of the report where it said
new ornamental lighting and asked if that meant green lanterns. Chris
Nicosia replied the area has green lanterns now and those will be
retrofitted. She then asked if that meant the whole pro�ect and Mr.
Kuhfeld reponded the whole pro,ject is being presented to the Council
based on green lanterns. The Council has the ability to make the
decision at the hearing whether thev want green lanterns or bent
straws. What is proposed on St. Clair in order to provide proper
lighting at the intersection and for safety purposes, is a combination
system similar to the section west on Snelling. A good number of
streets within this area will not be worked on and have been
previously paved. The decision to go with green lanterns instead of �
bent straws was because you would end up with green lanterns on the
{• east/west streets and bent straws on the north/south streets, and in
� my judgment, that would not look good, however, the decision is really
up to the Council, he added.
Councilmember Dimond commented he is not opposed to green lanterns but
just thinks all areas stiould be treated alike. it is very easy for
some neighborhoods to get them and in other areas they are ripped out.
Councilmember Rettman added that the original decision was to go with
bent straws but now green lanterns seem to becoming the norm. Mr.
Kuhfeld said he would be pleased to have a very clear defined policy
to follow.
MOTION: by Councilmember Rettman to recortmend approval of items 3. 4
and 5 with the amendment that bent straw lighting be
specified was passed on 3-0 vote.
9. FINAL ORDER: Condemning and taking the fee title in that property
bounded on the East by the westerly boundary of the Police Department's
Target Range, on the South by the northerly line of Linwood Avenue,
being that part of the south 700 feet of the east 311 feet of the
southwest quarter of the southeast quarter of Section l2, Township 28
Range 22 of Ramsey County. The project is to provide an added buffer
zone to the Police Department's Maplewood Target Range
complex. (Referred to Committee 10/6/88).
The Chair explained the reason this matter is before us is because
Councilmember Sonnen had raised some question about the city
. condemning property in Maplewood.
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. John McCormick, City Attorney, explained we are acquiring by eminent •
domain and the term "condemnation of property" is a common terminology
used. The city is given authority under the charter and statutes to
take property in areas outside the city. Lt. Joe Polski, Police
Department, said he had some slides of the property he would like to
show and explained they have been working on this since last spring. �
Discussions have been held between Dave Nelson and the owner/developer
or owner/seiler but there is no firm commitment at this time. Our
price has been keyed based on what we know Maplewood paid to acquire
land for the water tower. He further said they appeared before the C1B
committee a week ago and received their blessings to earmark some
dollars out of the CIB reserve for this purpose.
Councilmember Rettman said since this buffer zone is being acquired to
expand an area that is already a good zone, she is not convinced there
is a clear and compelling reason for the condemnation nor is she
convinced it is amicable with all parties. Further that she believes
condemnation should be done only as a last resort. Lt. Polski
explained an agreement is being put together, and it's possible they
may not reach an agreement on price which would mean going to court.
Mr. McCormick further explained all of the Final Orders the council
adopts has the language "condemn and take". This gives City authority
to go ahead and try to proceed. In most cases we don't file for
eminent domain. We acquire a lot of property each year and most of
them we can negotiate a settlement on. If agreement on price can't be
4 reached, then action is filed in District Court to acquire the •
property. In a lot of cases, he continued, we get to the point where
owner says I have no beef wit.h your taking my property for public
purpose, and no beef you actually need it, I Just think my property is
worth more than you have offered. In those cases, we enter into
stipulation agreement to authorize city to acquire property and the
only issue that goes to court is determination of that value.
Commissioners are appointed to make recommendation and if they can
agree. it stops right there. If property owner doesn't like what
commissioners come up with. it is appealed in district court.
Ms. Rettman suggested laying this over for 2 weeks to see if we are in
the ballpark and if they don't agree, then take it by eminent domain.
Lt. Polski then explained the owner plans to develop the property
around their buffer zone and if this is done the back yards of that
development will come right to the west boundary of their range close
to where the activity is and they are concerned about the safety of
the children playing in the area. As long as the land has remained
undeveloped, it has been fine, he added, but we want to avoid
problems. At this point the slides were shown and after viewing the
siides. Councilmember Rettman said the way this was expiained on the
green sheet is a lot different than what is being told now. Answering
Ms. Rettman's question a representative from Dave Nelson's office
stated Mr. Nelson has been in negotiations with these people. Some
discussion followed.
MOTION: by Councilmember Dimond to recommend approval was passed on a
3-0 vote. •
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• 10. RESOLUTION 88-1616: Amending the 1987 and 1988 CIB budget by
tr�nsferring funds from one SHEPARD ROAD PROJECT to another Shepard
Road Project. (Referred to Committee on 10/6/88) (Laid over in
Committee on 10 /12/88).
Leon Pearson. Public Works Department, said what we are doing is �
cleaning up the site that was purchased some years ago with federal
dollars. At this point Harvest States buildings are going to be torn
down and we want to include demolition of this building at the same
time. Two Naegele signs were on the building when it was acquired and
we have an obiigation to pay relocation costs. Councilmember Dimond
expressed his frustration about paying to relocate Naegele signs on a
building the city owns.
Sherrie Pemberton, PED. then spoke and said in 1985 HRA was authorized
by the Board to acquire 176 Chestnut Street for Shepard Road widening.
At that time Naegele had two sfans on the building and under the
Federal Relocation Act state requires they be paid for depreciation
reproduction costs of the sign or relocation, whichever is less. We
will have the same issue on Twin City Testing site coming up, she
said.
Councilmember Dimond commented a sign is not a corporation, not their
business and not their operation, so why should the city have to pay
them. The Chair commented. the sign is an extension of their business
� and Mr. McCormick, City Attorney. assured Mr. Dimond that staff has
; checked things out to make sure there are no other options and state
and federal laws must be complied with. Ms. Pemberton added that the
city does not relocate the sign but pays them an amount for losing the
sign and if theY want to put up a new sign it has to meet ail city
ordinances. She further explained when the city acquired Koppys
rather than have Naegele terminate and pay relocation right away we
continued to clear property and send payments to HRA until they decide
if !76 Chestnut was going to be torn down or actually be included in
Shepard Road, but relocation costs still have to be paid. Mr. Dimond
suggested a tax be placed on outdoor advertising signs so the
cortxnunity can be rid of those blights.
Ms. Rettman commented she has dealt a lot with the uniform relocation
act in the past and does think it has protected encroachment of
government and that people could be hurt worse if no such act was in
place. Based on this and Mr. McCormick's opinion and staff report,
she will give a positive vote with a negative feeling.
MOTION: by Councilmember Rettman to recortmend approval was passed on
3-0 vote.
1t. Update on WESTERN AVENUE BRIDGE.
Art Werthauser, Bridge Engineer, said he was here to review the status
of Western Avenue Bridge as requested by the Committee. Original
bridge was built in 1901; that bridge was torn down and a new one
• built in 1950 by GN Railroad. Since then bridge has been redecked
twice. That bridge has a subfloor of timber and in the spring of this
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year there was a fire which damaged some of the timbers and the bridge •
was, closed for several months. The bridge was repaired and reopened
but the damage done to the subfloor resulted in rerating of the bridge
and it was downposted for legal loads. All the bridges in the state
are listed on a bridge inventory system and uniformly rated, with 100
points being the best and t the worst. In 1987 Western Avenue Bridge
was rated at 29.4 but is now among the worst efficient bridges in the
State. However, as you know we have many other bad bridges starting
with Selby which is worse. We are in the process of rerating that
bridge and possibl,y closing it.
Councilmember Dimond suqgested the railroads could reroute some of
their bridges and possibly make a hook up to Ayd Mill Road. Mr.
Werthauser replied they have been actively negotiating to acquire the
Short Line but that has been killed because the railroad doesn't want
to sell. Under our 5-year program, Western Bridge had been presented
for replacement in 1992 and 1993 but as a result of the fire and
downgrading this has been moved up to 1990. Cost for reconstruction
of the bridge is $1 Million, but it is a MSA route and will be
eligible for MSA dollars. We are slowly repiacing the worst bridges,
doing a couple a year.
Councilmember Rettman said the neighborhood's concern when the bridge
was closed for so long was that this area would be abandoned. Mr.
Werthauser assured her his department has no intention of abandoning
any area. The bridge is safe at the limit approved, and we anticipate
{ it will continue to be safe until replacement. Bridge will be totally •
t replaced and will be closed for about a year, he added.
12. Other Business.
Meeting adjourned at 10:40 A.M.
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