Public Works Cte Minutes 11-09-1988 r
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Roger J. Goswitz,�Chair
� MINUTES OF PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
November 9, 1988 - Room 707 City Hall
PRESENT: Roger J. Goswitz. Chair
Councilmember Tom Dimond
Councilmember James Scheibel
ABSENT: Counciimember Janice Rettman (excused)
OTHERS PRESENT: Karl Johnson, Don Sobania. George Jurgensen, Tom Kuhfeld.
Bruce Hoheisel, John Saumweber, Mary Ann Hecht, Stephen Meyer,
Doug Hoskin, Jerry Segal, Peter White, Chris Nicosia, Dan
Dunford.
1. The minutes of October 26, 1988 were approved as submitted.
2. FINAL ORDER: Constructing the TROUT BROOK OUTL�T -(Phase A) and
cpnstructing a storm sewer in FOURTH STREET. The project area is
bounded by lnterstate I-94 to the north, vacated Kittson Street to the
west, the Mississippi River to the south and Commercial Street to the
east.
AND
• 3. F1NAL ORDER: Constructing sanitary, storm and water service
connections, if requested by the property owner, for the combined
sewer separation pro.iect known as the TROUT BROOK OUTLET (Phase A)•
Chris Nicosia, Public Works Department, explained Phase B was
completed before Phase A because it involves crossing Warner Road and
the piggyback operation of Soo Line which the city is trying to
acquire. Also the future ECDB bypass would require large fills in
order to accomplish the grade separation and to put the two 10 ft.
diameter pipes in. Property owners involved are mainly the railroad,
some Gillette and some NSP. Part of sewer can be built and part will
have to wait, he added.
Councilmember Dimond said he had no problem with the proJect but
before it is approved he would like to see how this fits into the
trail system because this is really an ideal time to look at it.
Councilmember 5cheibel expressed his concern about the closing of
Fourth Street since Sixth Street wili be closed for a long time and a
lot of people are using Fourth Street and Cortmercial Street to get on
to I-94. Mr. Kuhfeid said he would advise Mr. Scheibel as to the
length of time Fourth Sti will be closed and when work is expected
to begin.
Peter White, Valuations Division, informed the Committee they are
• getting close to working out an agreement with the Soo Line for the
property at the south end. Further discussion followed and in answer
to Councilmember Dimond's question Mr. Kuhfeld said it would not be a
maJor problem if these Final Orders were laid over for a period of
time.
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MOTION: by Counciimember Dimond to lay Items 2 and 3 over to the
November 23, 1988 Public Works Meeting was passed on 3-0 vote.
4. RESOLUTION: - MnDOT Aqreement on recreation traii.
Dan Dunford, Public Works Department, said it was his intention to
have ready a resolution and an agreement whereby the city would state
its intention to pay for the extension of the two bridges which would
allow for the widening of the recreational trail. Normally MnDOT
requires that the participating costs from other agencies be in their
hands at the time the contract is awarded. They don't want to
advertise for bids until they know the City will pay for this
extension and they are at that point now. However, since our capital
budget has already been approved for 1989, he said, we suggested
delaying payment to them until 1990. Their attorneys are working on
that and that agreement will have to be brought back before you at a
later date. He referred to the memo received from Bob Piram regarding
the status of their request that the trail be designated a regional
trail and said everything is quite positive regarding that. Mr.
Dunford then asked John Wirka, Parks Department, to add any other
information he might have.
John Wirka, Parks Department, said he had no new information but did •`
want the opportunity to look at the agreement before it is approved.
Bob Benke, MnDOT, stated they are willing to proceed with the
extension of the bridges if they are assured the funds will be
transferred but need to deal with the question of when they will be
transferred. The design of the extensions are ready. he added.
Both Councilmember Scheibel and Dimond said they thought this problem
was close to being resolved and suggested that the agreement and
resolution be brought directly to the City Council.
Mr. Benke informed the Committee he has taken another position with
MnDOT and expressed his appreciation in dealing with the Council and
Committee. The Committee expressed their thanks to Mr. Benke for his
hard work and efforts.
5. PRESENTATION: by Department of Public Works re Stop Sign Policy on
Collector Streets.
� Don Sobania. Traffic Engineer, explained their goal is the efficient
movement of people and goods and said he would like to present a
Stop Sign policy to the Cort�nittee for their consideration and
approval. He passed out the proposed policy and went over the history
of how they have responded to requests for stop signs in the past and
the criteria used to change traffic controls. The desire of the
neighborhood was not taken into account prior to the establishment of •
the District Councils. Since then the basketweaving has come into
place and has been very successful from an accident reduction and
public acceptance standpoint. The all way stop control has not met
with the same success as the basketweave program and the Traffic
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• Division has denied some of these requests which leads to frustration
for all parties involved.
Mr. Sobania explained the network of streets and their purpose. Local
streets have traffic volumes below 1.000 vehicles per day; the
Coilector streets have traffic volumes between 1,000 and 3,000; Minor
Arterial streets have traffic volumes from 3,000 to 8,000; Arterial
streets have traffic volumes over 8,000 vehicles per day and the
Expressways have over 20,000 vehicles per day.
Mr. Sobania went on to say changes in traffic control frequently
effect other streets. Streets impacted vary depending on
the configuration of streets in the general area. This has a ma,jor
impact on the decision of the Traffic Division on defining the area
that should have input into the decision making process. Removal of
existing stop signs is a very serious matter from a safety standpoint.
Drivers and pedestrians assume traffic control devices do not change.
For that reason Traffic Division does not like to remove or change
traffic controls. Because of the safety consideration, the
installation of controls should be strongly endorsed by the
neighborhoods, therefore, they would like to include in their Policy
that the Community Councils be responsible for obtaining a maJority
vote of 60% of the affected property owners in areas where there will
be a potential impact by changes in the traffic flow pattern.
• Councilmember Scheibel said he thinks this Policy is basically a good
plan and that the basketweave program has had neighborhood acceptance.
His concern is with the 60y. vote as a criteria. The language should
say community support, he said, but he felt that 601. would divide the
neighborhood5.
Councilmember Dimond cor�nented we need to look at what makes sense for
the City with our traffic and the construction that goes on,
particularly with relation to the highway system. The way they are
designed and hook up to our streets could make a big difference in how
it effects our traffic patterns. The roads in St. Paul should be
designed for the people who live here first and for those living
outside second. He said he was not opposed to people coming to our
city but did not believe in making things more difficult for those
living here. He agreed the proposed policy overall was good but at
the same time said it should not be too rigid.
The Chair then asked about the usefuiness of stop signs around
playgrounds vs. the ones around schools and said he would like to
treat them equally. Don Sobania explained one of the major
differences is the school patrol system and the organized way the
children go to get to school. You don't have that with playgrounds, he
said. and if slow playground signs are put up on collector type
streets it is easy to not see any of these signs.
• After further discussion. Mr. Sobania asked if he could bring this
Policy to the full Council and it was suggested he work on the 609�
factor and bring it back to the committee for final approval.
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6. DALE STREET ACQUISITION: - Purchase of propertv at 618 Charles Avenue
Peter White, Valuations Division, pointed out the Council has
previously approved the acquisition of the east side of Dale Street
for widening purposes and this is the first property we have come to
an agreement with on purchase price. Owner wants to close on the
property and get out quickly. Resolution will be on the Council agenda
on Tuesday or Thursday. No one appeared.
MOTION: by Councilmember Scheibel to recommend approval was passed on
3-0 vote.
7. Other Business.
George Jurgenson said he has been delegated to speak on behalf of the
Snelling Avenue Commercial Club and the Snelling/Hamline Community
Council. Two months ago the Council went on record to request a 4 way
stop at Selby and Saratoga because of the terrible traffic situation
there. Their request was unoffically refused by Public Works. Their
Council then passed a motion to go directly to the City Council with
their request but Molly 0'Rourke suqgested that I come to you this
morning, he said. He mentioned that he had talked to several business
people on Snelling/Selby and got favorable recommendations from them.
The Chair asked Mr. Jurgenson to write a letter to the Committee so •
that this matter could then be placed on the agenda. Mr. Jurgenson
also mentioned the traffic problems on Snelling 8 University and on
Fry and University.
8. Other Business.
Stephen Meyer from Allright Parking asked to speak on the Trout Brook
item and was told that the Committee laid this over to the November
23rd meeting. Mr. Meyer explained that last year they went through a
site plan approval process with the Planning Department and installed
their own storm water management plan for the property they own. A
portion of their land is in the assessment district and they request
that the City investigate removing their parcel from that district due
to the fact they did install their our system. Mr. Meyer was
informed this matter would be taken up at the November 23rd meeting.
Meeting adjourned l0:15 A.M.
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