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Green Sheet # 3o5S/�//
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Presented by
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RESOLUTION
41NT PAUL, MINNESOTA
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WHEREAS, the Legislative Hearing Officer recommends that the application for (I.D. #20070004620) a
Cabaret — Class A license, to be added to the existing license for Restaurant (L) — Limited, for Applause
Music Inc., doing business as Cheapo Discs, 80 Snelling Avenue North, be approved with the following
conditions:
l. Entertainment shall be discontinued no later than 930 p.m. on Sunday through Thursday and 11:00
p.m. on Friday and Saturday.
2. The noise level related to performances shall not exceed 80 dB at a distance of 10 feet from the
building.
THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Council of the City of Saint Paul hereby appmves this license
Application.
Yeas
Thune
Adopted by Council: Date
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Adoption Certified by Cou icil Seaetary
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Approved b Dat �O U�
By:
Requested by Department o£
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Form Approved by City Attomey
By:
Form Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council
By:
� Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet �
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co -co�a,
Contact Person 8 Phone:
Marcia Moermond
266-8570
Must Be on Council Agenda 6y (Date)
25-,IUN-08
Doc. Type: RESOLUTION
E-Document Required: Y
Dotument ContaM: Jean Birkholz
Contact Phone: 266-8673
16-JUN-08
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Assign
Number
For
Routing
Order
ToWI # of Signature Pages �(Clip PJI Locations for Signature)
Green Sheet NO: 3055611
0 ounN
I ounN De artmentDirectoi
2 " Clerk C7 Clerk
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Approving the license application with conditions, per the Legislative Hearing Officer, for a Cabaret - Class A license, to be added
to the existing license for Restaurant (L) - Limited, for Applause Music Inc, doing business as Cheapo Discs, 80 Snelling Avenue
North.
itla�ons: Approve (A) or Keject (R). Pe�sonal Semce Gontrects Must Answer the Following 4iuesbons:
Planning Commission 1. Has this person/5rm ever worked under a contract for this department?
CIB Committee Yes No
Civil Service Commission 2. Has this person/firm ever been a city employee?
Yes No
3. Does this personlfirtn possess a skill not normally possessed by any
current city employee?
Yes No
F�cpfain all yes answers on separate sheet and attach to green sheet
Initiating Problem, Issues, Opportunity (Who, What, When, Where, Why):
Advantages If Approved:
Disadvantages If Approved:
Disadvantages If Not Approved:
Trensaction:
Funding Source:
Financial Information:
(Explain)
Activity Number:
CostlRevenue Budgeted:
June 16, 2008 332 PM Page 1
S
LICENSE HEARING MINUTES � l �" 3
Cheapo Discs (Buzz) at 80 Snelling Avenue North
Thursday, May 8, 2008, 10:00 a.m.
330 City Hall, 15 Kellogg Boulevard West
Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer
The hearing was called to order at 10:02 a.m.
Staff Present: Reid Soley, Department of Safety and Inspecfions (DSI); Nhia Vang and Jean
Birkholz, Council Research
Others Present: Pat Wheeler, general manager, Cheapo; Sam Sc6neider, director of the store at
80 Snelling Avenue North; R. William Reilly, majority property owner; Elise Chahla, neighbor;
Elia Chahla, neighbor; Theresa Heiland, Executive Director, Union Park District Council
Cheauo Discs: Request for a Cabaret – Class A license to be added to the existing license for
Restaurant (L) - Limited
Ms. Moermond questioned where Mr. Alan Brown, applicant, fit into this picture. Mr. Wheeler and Mr.
Schneider stated that Mr. Brown was the owner of the store and visited sometimes, but he is usually at
the main office at 1222 University Avenue West. Mr. Brown intended to attend the hearing today but
was called out of town.
Ms. Moermond will begin with a staff report. Staff will be asked to explain their review of the
application and will also explain their recommendation. Then, she will ask the applicant to talk about
the business plan. Next, she will heaz from people who are here in support of the issuance of the license
and those with concerns about the issuance of the license and, she will review the letters / emails that
were sent regarding this application.
Ms. Moermond stated that this is an informal legislative hearing for a license application. This is a
Class N notification which means that the neighborhood gets notified and has a chance to voice its
concerns. If any one has a concern, it automatically triggers a heazing. Other Class N Licenses include:
liquor sales, entertainment, auto sales, etc.—things that have an immediate impact on the neighborhood.
The City received two (2) letters of concern regarding the issuance of this license. Ultimately, there are
three (3) possible outcomes from this hearing: 1) Ms. Moermond can recommend to the City Council
that they issue this license without any conditions; 2) she can recommend to the City Council that they
issue this license with agreed upon conditions; or 3) she can recommend to the City Council that they
not issue this license but refer it to an administrative law judge for a fiirther hearing and findings. At the
City Council level, it goes onto the Consent Agenda, which means that iYs handled in a joint motion
with approximately twenty (20) other items.
Mr. Reid Soley provided the staff report. He stated that there are no existing conditions. On Apri14,
2007, District Council 13 submitted a letter recommending approval of a cabaret license – class A for
Applause Music, Inc., at 80 Snelling Avenue North with the following conditions:
Add time limits for when music is to be performed, i.e., 10 p.m. for the acoustic stage and 9 p.m.
for the band stage.
2. Add security measures to the store's rear door (e.g., a push bar with alarm) to prevent patrons
from loitering in the azea behind the store and disturbing residents in the adjacent homes.
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Conceming inspection requirements — building pernuts will need to be obtained for the required
remodeling work which have not been applied for at this time. There no environmental health issues
here and no additional fire inspection is required for the issuance of this license. Licensing has approved
it, and there are no zoning issues; a cabaret license does not affect parking. The Department of Safety
and Inspections recommends approval with the conditions added to accommodate District 13's
recommendation.
Mr. Wheeler read from his written remazks:
Concerning live music at Cheapo, even though having live music would be City definition make
us a Cabaret, we are neither a night club nor a commercial entertainment venue. We're a music
store and a coffee shop and simply want to promote music and musicians with free in-store
performances as is common in the music industry. Both we and Home Video have had in-store
performances in this building in the past without problems. We tightly control the volume so we
and the other tenants in the building can conduct business while the music plays. The building
has insulated block wa11s and a foam insulated roof with a suspended ceiling. Amplified
performances will end at 9 p.m. Acoustic performances wiil end at 10 p.m. Liquor and drugs
will not be tolerated.
Mr. Schneider brought out a large blow-up of the layout of the store. He explained that the store is
open from 9 a.m. until midnight, seven (7) days and week, 365 days a year. Ms. Moermond asked the
size of the store. Mr. Schneider replied that it was 11,508 sq. ft. There are 100 parking stalls in the
pazking lot in the front. Ms. Moermond asked if they anticipated a lot more foot traffic with this. They
stated that they are not. The store does not promote the performances; the bands do. Most of the bands
are young and new. Ms. Moermond asked how many performances a week they are anticipating. They
responded that probably two (2) or three (3) nights per week on both stages at the most. Ms. Moermond
asked if they had met with the District Council and talk with them about their proposed conditions.
They responded that they were not at a meeting, but Mr. Brown did agree to the limited hours, and they
do have a security device on the rear door.
Mr. R. William Reilly, majority owner ofthe property since 1978, spoke in support. Mr. Reilly
informed Ms. Moermond that Home Video was located in this space until about six (6) months ago.
They had a very lazge store. Cheapo was on the other end of the building. Home Video was not awaze
that a license was required to have live music on the premises. They have been operating with live
music for approximately six (6) years. During that time, there was never a single neighborhood
complaint about noise. He continued to address a remark that had been made about Mr. Brown within
the letters of concern. Namely, that "Brown's businesses have been historically irresponsible and a
blemish to the communiry." Mr. Reilly said that he assumes the person who wrote this was not referring
to his building. They completely rebuilt their property after it bwned down in 2000. They spend
hundreds of thousands of dollars maintaining the property. Many inspectors go through the building
each year and they have not had one single, major item called to their attention because they have been
in compliance at all times. So, to refer to Mr. Brown's businesses as having been historically
irresponsible and a blemish to the community is something he cannot understand. The parking lot is
cleaned monthly and other vendors aze hired to keep the building up to code. He feels that their building
does not fall into the category of "un-maintained" and they have not had a complaint for any member of
the community. He added that there is seating for only 49 people and there will be no dancing allowed.
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Mr. Reilly stated that he asked Mr. Brown if he has ever had contact with the person who wrote the
letter. Mr. Brown responded that he could see the letter writer lives adjacent to the properiy which is
across the street from 80 Snelling Avenue North. Mr. Brown also stated that he had never received a
single telephone call from that neighbor. Mr. Brown checked with management of the building across
the street, and the management said they had never received a single telephone call about any of the
complaints that this person was making. From his standpoint as a building owner, he feels that they aze
extremely responsible building owners. He just remembered a complaint from about two (2) yeazs ago,
when the company that was cleaning the pazking lot at night made too much noise and a neighbor called
the police. The situation has been rectified. Mr. Reilly pointed out the Mr. Brown has agreed to the
conditions that the District Council has recommended.
Ms. Theresa Heiland, Director of the Union Pazk District Council (District 13), spoke in support. She
noted that she had met with Mr. Brown and the board voted to send in the recommendations from the
Council. This property would have been in the prevue of the former Snelling Hamline Community
Council. Ms. Heiland stated that when she found that there were letters of concern written to the City
about this properry, she tried to find out the nature of those concerns. In her discussion with Mr. Brown,
she felt that the neighborhood's concerns of noise, traffic, etc., were being addressed. She was assured
that the employees would be controlling the sound, not the performers. The large pazking lot reassures
her that the neighbors concern about cars parking on residential streets won't be a reality. She noted that
as a district council, they are not awaze of any problems. She spoke with former Snelling Hamline board
members and they are not aware of problems at this site. If there have been complaints, perhaps they
did not get to the district council level. This business had struggled after a fire, and they worked with
the Snelling Hamline Council when that happened. Mr. Brown noted that his business does intend to be
respectful to the neighborhood and will go along with the council's conditions. She certainly hopes that
should problems arise, they be addressed immediately.
Mr. Reilly added that the area of the acoustical stage is over 1 YZ football field's length away from the
home of the complainant who will be speaking in opposition here today. It's located in the back of the
property, approximately 500 feet away. He reiterated that Home Video had this type of operation for six
(6) years and there was never a single complaint. Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Reilly what businesses
have been in that property during that time period. Mr. Reilly answered that where Kettchitan is
currently located at the south end of the property, there was previously another tanning area in there.
Next to that was Cheapo Records. Next, was Home Video; then, Cheapo. Currently, there is a vacancy
where Cheapo Records was located.
Ms. Moermond asked if the applicants met with the district council. Ms. Heiland responded that she,
personally, met with Mr. Brown. He had called the council and told them what they were trying to do.
After meeting with Mr. Brown, Ms. Heiland reported back to the Land Use Committee; the Land Use
Committee reported to the Board and the Board voted on these conditions and recommendation.
Ms. Elise Chahla, 1583 Portland Avenue (across the street fro 80 Snelling Avenue North), spoke in
opposition. Ms. Chahla explained that she doesn't have as much information as she would like to have
about this, so she is a bit unprepared. She stated that she grew up living in a house adjacent to one of the
properties owned by Alan Brown and across the street from Cheapo. The comments that she made in
her letter about poor maintenance and being a poor neighbor were in reference to the Applause store
thaYs adjacent to their home. Nevertheless, Alan Brown owns that store and it is his agents that manage
that store. She said that her family has contacted the management of that store several times. That
property has had broken glass and graffiti; and trash has blown onto their lawn. It has been poorly
maintained. Her concern is that Mr. Brown seems to haue been oblivious to some obvious probiems
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happening at Applause. She has not seen good faith e�ibited in Mr. Brown's operation next door, so
she doesn't expect that he would be a responsible neighbor across the street. This is an historic
neighborhood; she and her family take great pride in their home, as do their neighbors. She would hate
to have raucous students and disruptions that haven't been historic. Home Video was an establishment
that closed at a reasonable hour; that catered to the neighborhood. This is the chazacter of most of the
businesses in their neighborhood. She assumes that this music is meant to bring outside crowds in. She
doesn't think that a business would put in an acoustic stage and an amplified stage without the
anticipation of some increased traffic or some increased profit. She thinks that there will be increased
noise that will be heard outside the building and across the street. She feels that the establishment is
pushing the limits by bringing music into the store. The video store did have an acoustic stage but she
doesn't remember them having more than one (1) musician per week; perhaps a guitarist and a singer.
This is a business plan to add an amplified stage and she thinks that it isn't fair to compare it to the
previous business (Home Video). They're changing the set-up. For her, it boils down to the issue of
trust.
Mr. Elia Mazoun Chahla, Elise's father, spoke in opposition. Mr. Brown, the applicant, doesn't live her
during the night. They say that no one ever complained but that's not the truth. There have been many
complaints. Mr. Chahla, himself, has called the police over fifty (50) times and then he gave up. Cars
have been parked on his property; dirt has been put onto his property; trash on his property; kids do
drugs behind his grape vine; late night disturbances with loud talking and cursing; eta The
neighborhood doesn't need to add more strange people and behauiors. His children have problems
studying at home because of the noise. He is concemed about his family and the neighborhood. He
asked that the hearing officer consider his concerns. He objects to this license. This is a residential
neighborhood, not a commercial neighborhood.
Ms. Moermond asked the Chahlas to show where their property (1583 Portland Avenue) is located on a
map in conjunction with Applause Music at 71 Snelling Avenue and Buzz at 80 Snelling Avenue.
Mr. Reilly commented that he didn't know that Alan Brown owned the building at 71 Snelling Avenue;
he thought he was a tenant there (Applause). Ms. Chahla responded that she doesn't think he owns the
building. The applicants chimed in that he doesn't own the building. Ms. Chahla added that it is Mr.
Brown's responsibility. Mr. Reilly responded that it is the responsibility of the owner of the properiy to
maintain the property. The tenant pays for that.
Ms. Moermond wanted to clarify that Cheapo is one half to two thirds of the property. Mr. Reilly
showed her the divisions of tenancy on the map. She asked if there was a parking lot associated with the
Applause building. Mr. Soley answered that there was parking associated with it but he wasn't sure of
what they were. Ms. Moermond stated that if there are pazking concerns with the Applause building, it
makes it a11 that more important that the City deals with the parking concerns at 80 Snelling Avenue
North. She asked Mr. Soley to try to reach Mr. Jeff Hawkins to help shed some light on this issue.
Mr. Schneider stated that Paul Himmelman, not Mr. Brown, owns the property on the west side of
Snelling where Applause is located. Currently, the Applause space at 71 Snelling Avenue North is
vacant. Cheapo is not being using that space as a business. Everything has moved into the space at 80
Snelling Avenue North.
Ms. Heiland thanked Mr. Chahla and his daughter, Elise, for coming to express their concerns. She
asked them if their concern is about this business or about Mr. Brown and the management. Ms. Chahla
replied that it is mostly about the management and maintenance of the properiy at 71 Snelling Avenue
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North. She understands now that Mr. Brown is not the owner of that property but he hasn't been talcing
responsibility for the property that he has managed. And, she has concems about how he his going to
manage this future endeavor.
Ms. Heiland stated that when she spoke with Mr. Brown, he said that the bands they would be bringing
in would be high school bands that are learning how to be a band; to get the experience of exposure.
Very likely, they would be from the neighborhood. She asked the applicants if it were their intention to
have other bands, as well. Mr. Schneider responded that other bands would also be allowed to play if
they have a CD in the store and if their music were not offensive.
Mr. Reilly, stated that as owners and landlords of property, they are very sensitive to the neighborhood.
The exterior grounds are thoroughly swept and cleaned at least once per month. Graffiti is taken caze of
within two (2) days. Regazding the home direcfly to the east of the property on Ashland Avenue, the
owners of 80 Snelling Avenue North needed to put up a new retaining wall in the back of the properry.
At the same time, they noticed that the adjacent neighbor had a concrete driveway which was totally
falling apart; so, they put in a complete new driveway for the homeowner, at no cost to him, because it
helped to stabilize our new wall and took care of any drainage problems. The neighbor was very
appreciative.
Mr. Soley commented that no staff, including Jeff Hawkins, was available at DSI at this time.
Ms. Moermond asked whether Mr. Brown was available by phone. Mr. Wheeler answered that he
would be available tomorrow.
Ms. Moermond reviewed the letters/emails of concern. Alan and Martha Hopeman's concern is
primarily about the noise level. He is looking for enforceable decibel level restriction. Mr. Jack Nelson
would have been here today but needed to go pick-up a sick child at school. He is concerned about the
increase in night time traffic, noise and potential loitering in this residential neighborhood.
Mr. Wheeler asked to read the information on their website and is provided to all of their perspective
performers. Before they perform, performers must agree to the following:
In-Store performance and guideline information
The concept behind in-store performances at Cheapo is to create a live musical experience for our
customers as they shop and to support local musicians by providing exposure and a chance to promote
their recordings. We want to create a fun shipping environment and offer something different from the
recorded music that we usually play. Chances aze you have not performed in a retail setting before.
Keep in mind, Cheapo is a record store; not a club, a bar, an art space, a wazehouse or any other sort of
venue that you may be used to playing. Also, the customers in the store will not be here, specifically, to
heaz you play. We will need to interact with our customers and conduct business during your set, so,
obviously, volume in an issue. Cheapo will control the volume of the performance and we expect you to
cooperate. If you do not, you will be asked to leave. There aze some styles of music that just do not
work for performance in a lazge retail space like Cheapo: hazdcore, biack, metal, rap, experimental
noise or offensive lyrical or performance content will not for an in-store. You will be asked to leave if
you engage in any rude or lude language or behavior. Cheapo is a business that appeals people of all
ages. Please use discretion when choosing songs.
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He added that if there's enough noise escaping the building to disturb any of the neighbors, it will be
intolerably loud inside of the building and they will not tolerate that.
Ms. Moermond asked how frequently they anticipated a band playing. Mr. Schneider responded that if
they had more than two (2) performances a week on the bank stage, he would be surprised. Ms.
Moermond asked what the consequence would be if a band broke the agreement. Mr. Schneider replied
that he would probably be willing to give bands one more chance to be booked.
Ms. Moermond took a break from the hearing to find out a little more about the City's history with
complaints on each of these properties.
When the hearing resumed, Ms. Moermond noted that she has printed out the City's record and has a
couple of concerns about the property at 80 Snelling Avenue North. One graffiti complaint was talcen
care of by the owner and the other complaint was taken care of by the City. Ms. Moermond pointed
these out to Mr. Reilly. She added that perhaps some of the management practices could be modified by
checking periodically for graffiti. Mr. Reilly responded that he is there three (3) days a week. He was
asked if he has signed a graffiti waiver from the City. Mr. Reilly replied that the reason he hasn't done
that is because the City charges too much. Ms. Moermond responded that if he signs the waiver, there is
no charge. Mr. Reilly will receive a graffiti waiver before he leaves here today. The City removes
graffiti very quickly; it's a safety issue. Most graffiti is gang related and it's much better to remove it
than to allow it to exist.
Ms. Moermond stated that she is troubled that Mr. Brown couldn't make it. There are those problems
across the street and he must have known about them. This about a site on the other side of the street;
however, the concerns are valid and related because Mr. Brown is the owner of the businesses. The
applicants read some comments from an email from Mr. Brown:
I don't recall ever receiving any complaints from this person (referring to Ms. Chahla). My manager,
Ethan (manager of Applause), said there have been complaints that a snow plow service has pushed
snow onto this property. That would have been a landlord problem; I was not informed. I am unawaze
of any complaints to the dish council or City on any of these issues. If we re-open at 71 North
Snelling, we will work with this resident on these issues.
Ms. Moermond stated that she understands that Mr. Brown didn't get called. She knows that the
Chahlas said that they actually did call. Because Mr. Brown hasn't heard it before doesn't mean that it
isn't valid at this time. Even though Mr. Brown doesn't own the building at 71 North Snelling, as a
tenant, he would have quite a bit of sway in terms of how the property is managed. The applicant stated
that Ethan Raymond, who was the manager at 71 North Snelling, repeatedly spoke to the managers of
Now Bike and Fitness to remove that graffiti.
Ms. Moermond asked the representatives of Mr. Brown if they were authorized to sign-off on any
negotiated conditions that are arrived at or is that something that would need to be forwarded to Mr.
Brown. They said that should be forwazded to Al. Ms. Moermond then considered her two (2) options:
1) continue the hearing; or 2) close the hearing and continue in a separate hearing with him. Since Mr.
Brown found the districYs two (2) conditions acceptable, they will continue to exist, but she would like
to have a conversation with Mr. Brown to address some of the neighbor's concerns to help ameliorate
some of the neighbors' concerns. The applicants noted that since 80 Snelling Avenue North was re-
built in 2001-2002, those have not been concerns. They don't see the logic that if they were granted a
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cabazet license, then the problems that befe1171 would befall 80. Ms. Moermond would like to speak
with Mr. Brown about that.
Ms. Moermond read from code 310.06 where it talks about what kinds of conditions can be discussed
and placed on the license and based on what. The first one is:
- the hours of operation
- restriction as to the location within the license premise or establishment where a particulaz type of
activity may be conducted (where stages could be located, etc.)
- a limitation as to the means of ingress or egress from the licensed establishment or its parking lot
- a requirement to provide off-street pazking in excess of other requirements of the law.
- a limitation on the manner and means of advertising the operation or merchandise of the licensed
establishment
- any other reasonably condition or restriction limiting the operation of the licensed business or
establishment to ensure that the business or establishment will harmonize with the character of the azea
in which it is located or to prevent the development or continuation of a nuisance.
Ms. Moermond stated that she is concerned about the continuation of the nuisance or the exacerbation of
an existing condition that is perceived as a nuisance. Mr. Reilly reiterated that Mr. Brown was called
out of town today; it was not his decision to not appeaz here today.
Ms. Moermond asked that the continuation of this hearing be scheduled for sometime within the next
couple of weeks.
The Chahlas added testimony about noisy and disturbing parties being held in the parking lot of 80
Snelling Avenue North late at night.
(Tape #2)
Ms. Heiland suggested that they do a police security assessment, no trespassing signs, and a block club
meeting with neighboring business owners and residents.
Ms. Moermond stated that a continuation of this heazing will be scheduled within two (2) weeks. She
would like to problem solve these issues and not let them continue to fiustrate the neighbors.
The hearing ended at 11:45 a.m. to be continued at a date to be determined.
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Minutes of the ConHnuation License Hearing for Buzz at 80 Snelling Avenue North
10:00 a.m. Thursday, May 15, 2008.
The hearing was called to order at 10:05 a.m.
Staff Present: Reid Soley, Department of Safety and Inspecfions (DSI); Nhia Vang and Jean
Birkholz, Council Research
Others Present: Alan Brown, owner and president, Cheapo Records; Jack Nelson, neighbor; Elise
Chahla, neighbor; Elia Chahla, neighbor;
Buzz: Request for a Cabaret – Class A license to be added to the existing license for Restaurant (L) -
Limited
Ms. Moermond explained that the Cabazet – Class A license is a class N license which means that the
neighborhood gets notified; they have a chance to shaze their concerns or objections to the issuance of
the license. This hearing was triggered because Ms. Moermond received several letters of concern. At
this hearing, Ms. Moermond's objective is to develop a recommendation for the City Council to
consider the license application. Ms. Moermond can recommend one of three (3) things: 1) that they
issue this license without any conditions; 2) she can recommend to the City Council that they issue this
license with agreed upon conditions; or 3) she can recommend to the City Council that they not issue
this license but refer it to an administrative law judge for a further hearing and findings, which would
come back to the City Council. Ms. Moermond hopes that the issues can be resolved in this
environment, which is not only a lot cheaper but time effective, as well.
Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Brown if he also owns the business across the street, Applause Records. Mr.
Brown responded that Applause Records has been closed. She asked if he has any association with that
building at 71 Snelling Avenue North. Mr. Brown replied that he is still paying rent on it; the lease goes
three (3) more years. The landlord could decide to sublet the space or cancel Mr. Brown's lease and
start a new lease. Ms. Moermond went on the explain that the neighbors were thinking that physical
conditions at Applause Records and the management there would carry forward to the current location at
80 Snelling Avenue North. Her concern is whether these concerns are business management concerns
or the landlord's property management concerns. And, aze there measures that can be taken to mitigate
these concerns. Some of these things happen when no one is at the business—parties in the parking lot
in the middle of the night. So, aze there cameras and lighting to help deter criminal activity? Would
screening help to address people's movement in and out of the parking lot in the middle of the night?
Perhaps there are things that can be done to address the concerns of the neighbors. Adding a cabaret
license may change the character of the retail that has been there. Mr. Brown commented that he
doesn't think it will be changing the character of the retail. Previously, there was a coffee shop there
and Home Video also had this type of entertainment. The only change he sees is the fact that he is
actually applying for the cabaret license. Home Video didn't have a cabaret license; and he never heard
about any complaints about their performances. Ms. Moermond asked if Mr. Brown had a chance to
read the letters of concerns. Mr. Brown responded that he had.
Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Jack Nelson, 1563 Portland, to provide his testimony. Mr. Nelson stated that
he is a neighbor of Cheapo Records and he has concerns. He acknowledged that there had been
previous performances at Home Video. It was usually someone with an acoustic guitar. The neighbors
aze concerns about: 1) the nature of the music to be played; 2) is there sufficient noise abatement
material in the building to handle amplified music; 3) how frequently during a month will there be
performances; 4) what type of groups will be allowed to play; 5) how late will they be playing; etc. It is
an interesting neighborhood in that it's entirely residential except there's Snelling Avenue running right
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through the middle of it. What concerns his family and the neighbors he's talked with is that although
the change here might be small, over time, incremental changes can really change the chazacter of the
neighborhood. Cheapo was originally a grocery store and the professional building a half block north
was originally was a fire house. IYs a fairly quiet atmosphere. When Home Video was there, he had
noticed that there were occasional parking lot parties. He is concerned that if entertainment went two
(2) or three (3) nights per week, it would attract a lot of younger people, who tend, by nature, to be a
little cazeless in how they act azound other peoples' neighborhoods. Their daughters' bedroom is on the
north side of their house, which is the south side of this properiy, and it is difficult for them to get good
sleep because they heaz whaYs going on. Acoustical stuff is probably not a big deal; however, if they're
going to have `battle of band' nights as they often do in Dinkytown, it would be a huge deal for the
neighborhood because they bring in a ton of kids and a ton of noise. He doesn't know if that building
was constructed with noise abatement in mind. He hasn't talked with anyone who supports expansion of
entertainment in that azea. Snelling is an immensely busy street and the more we put on it, the more
difficult it becomes for neighbors and neighborhoods. Ms. Moermond informed Mr. Nelson that the
proposed conditions put time limits for when the music would be performed; 10 p.m. is the latest for the
acoustic stage and 9 p.m. is the latest time for the amplified stage.
Mr. Brown provided a large map of the inside of the store and described the layout.
Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Soley to explain the Cabaret Class A license. Mr. Soley explained that a
Cabaret Class A license is for non-liquor licensed establishments and it essentially accomplishes what an
Entertainment license does for a bar. An Entertainment license type B for bars allows dancing; type A
allows performances but not dancing. With Cabarets, there's not that distinction; it does allow dancing.
There are no limits as to the number of performances. It allows both amplified and non-amplified
musical performances.
Mr. Brown answered some of Mr. Nelson's questions. There are two (2) speakers at the amplified stage.
There are no restrictions on the nuxnber of performances. Actually, there hasn't been a performance
there since Home Video was there. There are no pians as to how many performances there will be.
There are completely open to that. The performers aze not paid; they don't chazge people to come in. It
is up to when the performers are available. Both stages aze never run at the same time. Performers
would not begin before late afternoon or later. Performers do not need to be accomplished to perform at
the store.
Mr. Chahla stated that about six (6) years ago, he called the police about a bad guy during the night.
The guy ran away when the police came. The next day, five (5) of the eight (8) new tires that he had
just purchased for his two (2) cars parked on the street were slashed. That is why he is afraid to ca11 the
police about anything. Two (2) days ago at 4 a.m. there was screaming and yelling in the parking lot.
He did not call the police; he is afraid to call the police. Regarding the parking lot of the building next
door. They removed the cement blocks between the parking lot and the sidewalk and they put on block
top. They put a little bit on his property. Four years ago at night, he was walking by and was hit by a
caz when he was trying to get out of its way. He fell on the ground and hurt his elbow. The people in
the car were afraid but he told them that he wouldn't say anything. He stated that he went to the
manager of the store many times but it was like talking to a wall. He called the City to complain. He
went on to say that maybe Mr. Brown is not trying to hurt the neighborhood but the word, "CabazeY'
conveys many things, some of which are not good for a quiet neighborhood.
Ms. Moermond noted that the City of Saint Paul does not require that the neighborhood be notified
about restaurant and cafe type activities. Those licenses can simply be issued by the City. However, if
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there's going to be entertainment, the City has labeled that license to be a"CabazeY' license if there's not
alcohol involved; iYs labeled an"Entertainment" license if there is alcohol involved. It could be called
an"acoustic music" license or a"band" license or a"dancing" license or a"live music" license but the
activity implied by "CabareY' in people's mind is not necessari]y the same as what is being proposed
here.
Mr. Chahla said that he is not trying to cause problems but wants to help keep their neighborhood safe.
On Mother's Day and last Monday, he went from house to house; just about every person opposed this
license. His petition was signed by 157 people. The whole neighborhood doesn't even know about it.
Mr. Soley stated that the perimeter of notification is 300 feet, spelled out in the Legislative Code. In this
case, it included both sides of Portland between Snelling and Sazatoga; both sides of Ashland between
Snelling and Saratoga; both sides of Laurel between Snelling and Saratoga; both sides of Hague between
Snelling and Sazatoga. It included some properties on the west side of Snelling. Ms. Moermond noted
that some of the people who signed the petition weren't notified about this license application because it
wasn't required by law that they be notified. She added that this is a legal business at this location and
so, iYs not a matter that is subject to vote. She also understands Mr. Chahla's concern. Ms. Moermond
added that Ms. Heiland from the Union Pazk District had two (2) good ideas about these concerns: 1)
the formation of a block club in the immediate vicinity and using that as a vehicie for engaging in more
in-depth discussions with the Police Department about monitoring that parking lot at night; and 2)
warking with the management of both these buildings. Ms. Moermond noted that today, simply the
license can be worked out, adding conditions that will help to have less of a negative impact on the
neighborhood. She added that if she would recommend denial of this license to the City Council, they
may or may not agree with her; however, within six (6) months to one (1) year, this gentleman would
have his license because the courts would make sure of it; because iYs a legal business.
Ms. Chahla stated that she is concerned about the business expanding.
Mr. Nelson said that he would like to see a restriction on the number of nights per month / per week that
performances can be held, at least for a year so the neighborhood can see what the impact is.
Ms. Moermond stated that she had concerns about people being in the parking lot late at night; the
number of people and the noise they might create; potential trash and loitering problems. She feels that
placing some conditions on the license may be able to address some of these concerns and ameliorate
some of the neighbors' concerns.
Ms. Moermond asked if there is a phone number that neighbors can call if they are disturbed by noise
from the music. Mr. Brown responded that they can call the store; a manager is on duty all of the time.
He reiterated that the performers do not control the sound; the store's management does, so there should
never be a problem with it. He added that noise has never been a problem in the past. There aze at least
three (3) inches of foam insulation in the roof; the concrete block has 1 ll� inches of foam insulation in
side; and the amplified sound needs to pass through two (2) or three (3) walls in some places, just to get
outside.
Ms. Moermond asked about the duration of a performance. Mr. Brown responded that an acoustic
performance will last about two (2) hours with a break in the middle; and an amplified performance will
last an hour, at the most.
Ms. Moermond asked about limiting the number of perFormances per week / per month. Mr. Brown
asked if other establishments with a Cabazet license have that as a condition. Ms. Moermond responded
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that they do. Ms. Moermond added that such a condition is not required by Code but sometimes is
negotiated based on neighborhood circumstances. Mr. Brown stated that unless there is a music
showcase like "South by SouthwesY' (a perforxnance every hour), he can't imagine having more than
two (2) performances per day. The point is to have places to perform for the kids. IYs not true that you
have to be a very good or accomplished or a popular musician to have a CD nowadays. Anyone can
make a CD and sell them. And, he added that they aze not interested in serving alcohol or having music
in the pazking lot in case a temporary entertainment license would be sought for a special music festival,
etc.
Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Brown to ponder conditions luniting the hours of performances to four (4)
hours a day and twenty (20) days a month, varied from time to time upon request of the business to the
department (DSI).
Ms. Moermond stated that the building owner, Mr. Reilly, had said that he would be willing to talk
about security through the night and making the whole azea safer. Mr. Brown responded that he has
spoken with William Reilly about it. Mr. Reilly found that closing the parking lot at night was not
feasible. Mr. Brown stated that he is putting in a whole new camera system. He discussed with Mr.
Reilly the possibility of putting in an outside camera system to monitor the parking lot. He will order it;
and it will be mounted on the building and cover approximately 80% of the parking lot. He has two (2)
entrance cameras that will be installed immediately after the exterior camera is installed. Ms.
Moermond added that the Police Department has people who specialize in the layout of interior and
exterior spaces to minimize potential crime locations. Mr. Brown responded that he doesn't need that;
he's had cameras in his stores for years.
Ms. Moermond asked if there were gazbage cans in the parking lot azea. Mr. Brown answered that there
are either two (2) or three (3). His employees pick up the trash in the parking tot in front of his store and
on the north side of the building every morning. Ms. Moermond commented that was a very good
neighborly activity. Mr. Soley pointed out the trash in the pictures that were taken in other azeas of the
pazking lot. Mr. Brown stated that it is not in the lease that the tenants are responsible for picking up
trash in the parking lot. Ms. Moermond stated that she will give Mr. Reilly a call to talk about this. She
noted that loose and scattered trash is a code violation and could be called in at any time. Mr. Brown
stated that Mr. Reilly does have someone come by to clean up the parking lot but he didn't know how
often.
Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Brown whether he's had a chance to think about the limitation as to the
duration and the number of days. Mr. Brown responded that iYs a toss up between what can be done
without the cabaret license and what can be done with a cabazet license. Without the cabaret license and
a limit of 49 people there, there is no limit. Mr. 5oley added that, effective May 24, 2008, the City
Council passed a new ordinance that exempts small businesses that will have fewer than fifty (50) seats /
patrons from having to apply for a cabaret license. So, if he can hold the crowds down to below fifty
(50), he wouidn't really even need this license. There aze forty (40) some seats in the coffee azea and
considering the additional people who could be standing among the racks, it certainly could go over fifty
(50) without careful policing. Mr. Brown interjected that the areas are separated by a floor to ceiling
wall, so the performances aze sepazated. Ms. Moermond stated that in the interest of neighbor relations,
he might want to go ahead with the license. Mr. Brown said that the neighbor's petition was obtained by
suggesting that having a cabaret would bring drugs and prostitution into the neighborhood. So, now, the
neighbors are worried about a cabaret license. Mr. Brown thinks that perhaps if he gets the cabazet
license, there could be more conflict in the neighborhood. There could be more complaints because they
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have a cabaret license. If they don't have a cabaret license, that word is not in the mix and the neighbors
are relieved, and they can have performances anyway.
Mr. Soley asked for ciarification about the security camera requirement. Ms. Moermond responded that
it should be similaz to baz security camera systems.
Ms. Moermond stated that she would like Mr. Brown to think about how he would like to proceed. She
has put out a proposal; they have agreed on a camera system, and she likes the conditions about when
the performances will stop in the evening. She encouraged Mr. Brown to continue to pursue the license
because the conditions provided in that license aze really important. Ms. Moermond asked Mr. Brown
to get back to her by the end of the work day on Monday, May 19, 2008, about his decision and to
finalize conditions. Whatever the conclusion, the City will respond to everyone who has written letters
or emails and has come to the hearings regazding the conclusion so that everyone knows where it goes
from here.
The hearing ended at 11:28 a.m.
/jab
After the phone call from Mr. Brown on Monday, May 19, 2008, Ms. Moermond recommended
approval of the license with the following conditions:
1. Entertainment shall be discontinued no later than 9:30 p.m. on Sunday through Thursday, and 11:00
p.m. on Friday and Saturday.
2. The noise level related to performances shall not exceed 80 dB at a distance of 10 feet from the
building.
Additionally, there was a request from Mr. Brown, the license applicant, a week after the hearing that
the title of the business on the license should be changed to Applause Music, Inc. dba Cheapo Discs.
DSI staff indicated that there is no problem or cost associated with changing the "Doing Business As"
(DBA) status, the license applicant was not changing. Therefore, the business name in the resolution
granting the license and the business name in these minutes is different.
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