06-908Council File # �(�' OPJ
Green Sheet # 3033130
Presented by_
Referred To
Committee Date
BE IT RESOLVED, that the Council of the City of Saint Paul hereby certifies and approves the August 1,
2006, decisions of the Legislative Hearing Officer on Appeals of Letters, Deficiency Lists, Correction Notices,
and Correction Orders for the following addresses:
Properry Appealed
Apnellant
1172 Bush Avenue Paui Garding
Decision: Appeal denied on Deficiency List dated July 12, 2006.
451 Selby Avenue Robert Gausman
Decision: Appeal denied on Correction Notice dated July 11, 2006.
Yeas Nays Absent
Benanav �
Bostrom ,
Harris J
Helgen �
Lantry ,�
Montgomery �
Thune �
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Requested by Department of:
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Form Approved by CiTy Attomey
Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council
By:
Adopted by Council: Date //f�d</��7iJUG�
Adoption Certif�ied by C uncil Secretary
By: �rJ//ilu �n i<_SOn
Approved by �uiag�or:� Date: 1 � — � ��O
BY: � R.c..��fn .� �a
RESOLUTION
CiTY OF SAINT PAUL, MINNESOTA
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� Green Sheet Green Sheet
Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet Green Sheet �
0�-908
Departrnentloffice/councii: Date Initiated:
co �W�.� 27SEP-06 Green Sheet NO: 3033130
Contact Person & Phone- ���eM Sent To Person InitiaVDate
Marcia Mcermond � 0 cil
266-8570 p�� 1 ou cil De a eutDirecWr
Must Be on Councii Agenda by (Date): Number y i lerk
Por
Routi� 3
Order 4
5
Tofal # of SignaWre Pages _(Clip All Locations for Signature)
Action Requested•
Approval of decisions of the Legislative Hearing Officer for Appeais of Letters, Deficiency Lists, Correction Notices, and Correction
Orders for the following addresses: 1172 Bush Avenue and 451 Selby Avenue.
Recommendations: Approve (A) or Reject (R): Personal Service Contrects Must Answer the Following Questions:
Planning Commission 1. Has this person/firm ever worked under a contract for this department?
CIB Committee Yes No
Civil Service Commission 2. Has this personffirm ever been a city empioyee?
Yes No
3. Does this personffirm possess a skill not normally possessetl by any
current city employee? .
Yes No
Explain all yes answers on separate sheet and attach to green sheet
Initiating Problem, Issues, Opportunity (Who, What, When, Where, Why):
Advantapes If Approved:
DisadvantapeslfApproved:
C�unci6 Research ;;�nter
SEP 2 "� �2D06 °
Disadvantages If Not Approved: ,
.�_ . _�;.. — � , .__
ToWI Amount of CosURevenue BudgMed: � � .
Transaction:
Funding Source: Activity Number:
Financial Information:
. (Explain)
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Ob-�c�
NOTES OF THE LEGISLATIVE HEARING
LETTERS OF DEFICIENCY, CORRECTION NOTICES, AND CORRECTION ORDERS
Tuesday, August 1, 2006
Room 330 City Hall, 15 West Kellogg Boulevard
Marcia Moermond, Legislative Hearing Officer
STAFF PRESENT: Kevin Chapdelaine, Division of Fire Prevention; Paula Seeley, NHPI
(Neighborhood Housing and Property Improvement); Michael Urmann, Division of Fire
Prevention;
Appeal of Paul Garding to a Defiiciency List for property at 1172 Bush Avenue.
(Fire Prevention)
Michael Urmann introduced Kevin Chapdelaine who is the mechanical inspector who deals with
the open buming permits and issues with the Fire Marshall. Mr. Urmann provided photographs
of the property.
Kevin Chapdelaine reported that Mr. Ricketson started the process and called Mr. Chapdelaine,
who went out and took the photographs. When Mr. Chapdelaine arrived at the property, ihe
burning appiiance had been moved from its original location and put in a storage location. One
picture shows where it had been and where the charring of the deck had taken place, which
speaks volumes of why the ordinance was written. Per conversation with Mr. Ricketson, Mr.
Chapdelaine was awaze of where the appliance was previously. The ordinance being referenced
comes from the fire code and has been accepted by the City Council. It has been in effect for
about five years. An open fire pit at ground level, traditionally with rocks azound it, requires 25
feet of clearance firom combustibles, which can be a gazage, fencing, home, and anything else
combustible. An approved UL appliance could be used within 15 feet of combustibles. That is
sort of a metal apparatus that is screened, domed, or has a lid to it; the fire is smaller and the
screening and lid keep the fire and ash contained. The appliance in question today would not be
approved at all. It did not have a top, it did not have more than just one side, and it was not
screened. It was originally buiit to burn chazcoal. It was quite old. One back panel was cracked.
Paul Garding, appellant, appeared and stated that he called about an approved container. He was
told that there has to be a 15 feet setback. Mr. Garding told him that 15 feet for virtually any lot
in St. Paul is not doable. The inspector said that his lot is not big enough. When there is a UL
approved stove inside the house, said Mr. Garding, the cleazance is 18 inches to two feet.
Outside where there is more air movement, there is five times that amount. He asked where the
I S feet comes from and where is the reseazch that says it needs to be 15 feet, and how many fires
are caused by recreation fires from four feet. It is overly restrictive. Mr. Urmann responded that
this code section comes directly out of the state fire code. State fire code is put together by fire
chiefs, fire mazshals, and fire professionals through Minnesota and naUonally. This figure is
taken because anything outside is subject to wind, weather conditions, and other combustibles in
that azea. A stove installed in that house has been tested, has shielding, and is installed to code to
be neaz these combustibles. It is a different application.
LEGISLATIVE HEARING MINUTES OF AUGUST 1, 2006
Pa � �
Mr. Gazding stated that I S feet is overly restrictive. People aze sitting three feet away from
them. If the heat was dangerous enough to combust, he could not sit close to it. Ms. Moermond
responded they are talking about the spark and not the heat. Mr. Urmann concurred and added
flying embers, and the heat coming from the smoke.
Mr. Garding stated he is willing to build something. He is getting vague answers. That size lof
is representing a lazge number of lots.
Ms. Moermond denied the appeal. She will contact Fire to see if they have connections at the
state. The appellant brings up another issue; the future construction of a fire pit and fire place in
the yazd. If he wants the fire pit to be less than 15 feet from a combusfible, the appellant will
need to seek a variance of the fire code, which is done through here. It is not easy to do. Ms.
Moermond would like to see complete site plans to give her an indication of what he is talking
about. She will shaze ttiat with the fire people, and they will see whether this situation merits a
variance from the code.
Mr. Gazding said his deck is only 10 feet deep. He never argued that this would work.
Ms. Moermond stated they can give him a call about where the 15 feet comes from. Mr. Urmann
responded it comes from the international, wluch was adopted by the State. They will see what
they can do.
Mr. Garding stated there is very little regulation on grill.
Ms. Moermond asked was he planning on doing this installation this yeaz. Mr. Gazding
responded probably not. He would like the opfion to get cooperation if he wants to do it.
Ms. Moermond indicated if a variance needs to be processed, she will look for a letter from the
Fire Department on that. They can do that based on a letter in the future. She would like a yes
that this plan will work. Theq will have specific ideas of how it will work in this situation. If he
has to go inside that I S feet with a fixture, he will need a variance. Ms. Moermond would not
grant a variance without the Fire Department saying it would work. Mr. Urmann added that
there is no appIicaUon that has an open fire box that is able to be used within 15 feet of any
combustible structure. He can use a stove or bazbecue pit that is completed closed, but no open
fire box within 15 feet of a given structure. It has to be closed.
Mr. Chapdelaine stated that he has overseen in part the structure of a few of these over the yeazs.
He tells them they need to be through Zoning Department-Planning Review to find out what they
require. Mr. Chapdelaine handles the fire departmenYs concerns.
Mr. Garding showed a magazine and said that these things aze all the rage, and he wonders why
they aze showing these things if the national code is against them Mr. Chapdelaine responded
they aze different things. Some items aze a single wall with a very light metal and light screening
and another itam is an insulated fire brick lined appliance that meets UL standards.
(Ms. Moermond denied the appeal on the Deficiency List dated July 12, 2006.)
` LEGISLATIVE HEARING MINUTES OF AUGUST 1, 2006 O P ge 3 b �
Appeal of Robert Gausman to a Correction Notice for property at 451 Selbv Avenue.
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Inspector Paula Seeley, NHPI, appeared and reported that she received a complaint about several
exterior code violations on the house: molding that was rotted, east porch guardrail system was
missing, and the decking was rotted. She wrote up whatever code violations she saw at the
property. This is HPC District 2. Her understanding is that the owner needs more time.
Ms. Moermond asked what led to an inspection here. Ms. Seeley responded it was a complaint
from a citizen. This is not a life safety issue. One issue is the electrical. There aze two meters:
one has a globe on it, and the other does not. Also, there aze children there and there aze no steps
on the porch and storm windows missing.
Mr. Robert Gausman stated that there is a threat in the report on Page 2: Failure to correct these
deficiencies may result in the issuance of criminal charges and/or a civil lawsuit and possible
abatemendassessment by the City. Mr. Gausman has tatked to his wife and neighbors and there
is no reason for this. Everyone he talks to thinks that this kind of thing will damage marriages,
families, and is not professional.
Mr. Gausman continued: he has a plan for the house. It is a Victorian house. In doing a project
and when working on a budget, it is small and di�cult. (Mr. Gausman showed items he is
working with, items he will be using for his house, and his plans for his house.) His house has
ended up as an example in the HPC (Historic Preservation Commisslon).
(Mr. Gausman spoke extensively of personal things concerning his family, his wark, community
volunteering, and community issues that he was involved in, committees that he served, and lead
paint in his neighborhood.)
Ms. Moermond asked what he is looking for. Mr. Gausman responded that he is hoping that the
City and State would care enough about his job situation to act responsibly. He has a six year
old child and is concerned about education. This house is not rental property and it is an old
house. It takes time to do the things he is doing. There are lots of good things about the house.
Ms. Moermond is also hearing that the owner has made a lot of contributions to the community.
She is familiaz with the kind of projects that Mr. Gausman has taken. Ms. Moermond feels that
if a police officer pulls someone over for speeding, she hopes that the officers treats them the
same as they would treat someone else, even though that person may have done a lot of work in
the community. Ms. Moermond stated that no one would like to pursue this criminally. This
means the smallest kind of tag a person would get which is akin to a pazking ticket. Plenty of
people get this form letter. She will communicate to the deparhnent that they should make it
clear that they are not talking about arresting someone. There are financial constraints; however,
the electrical part makes her nervous. That would not have anything to do with the lustorical
aspect. With a six year old, you want the glass to be safe. She is concerned about the peeling
paint and the branches. Ms. Seeley responded that the branches have been taken care of.
ao'cl C7� .
LEGISLATIVE HEARING MINL7TES OF AUGUST 1, 2006 Page 4
Ms. Moermond stated she understands about him having the difficulty with the fmances. She
will propose that the windows and sashes be repaired by September 1. Ms. Seeley responded
there aze places to get hazdwaze for the older homes. HI'C will work with him. It is the state
energy code. The storms aze missing. She saw one cracked window. Ms. Moermond responded
she would 2ike the cracked window fixed by September 1. Mr. Gausman responded that is
already fixed.
Ms. Moermond stated the next thing she is concemed about is that the windows should open in a
way that they can get out in a fue and the six yeaz old can get out of the house. Mr. Gausman
responded they da Ms. Moermond said that she is comfortable going with a Ionger time Iine if
those things aze addressed.
Ms. Moermond asked about the electrical meter. Mr. Gausman responded there aze two boxes
because there is an upper and lower duplex. All of it goes to the fuse box in the basement. The
other has a hole for a meter. He can put something over it for now. Ms. Seeley asked is it a
single family. Mr. Gausman responded that it started out in 1883 as a singie family. During the
depression, it became a triplex. Now, it is a legal duplex, but it is not used as a duplex. In the
plan, he would like it to be a duplex again.
Ms. Seeley asked when he got the electrical installation put in as she did not see any pemuts.
Mr. Gausman responded he does not remember. It was done by one of the top electricians.
Ms. Moermond stated she has concems about the electrical. She asked for an electrical inspector
to make a suggestion about the most affordable way to make ttus safe. Ms. Seeley responded she
will call Downtown to see. Ms. Moermond staxed maybe the inspector could write an order on
what they need to do to make it safe for now until he wants to do a duplex.
Mr. Gausman stated his brother is an elecirical engineer and he can speak to him. Ms.
Moermond responded she would like to have an inspector in there to get it stabilized and she is
comfortable that this situation is taken care o£ She asked would 10 to 18 months be a reasonable
time to take care of this. Mr. Gausman responded he is concerned about his job situation, Ms.
Seeley responded she got a letter from his church, in which the Paint-a-thon was mentioned.
They will do all the painting.
Ms. Moermond stated she will talk to Amy Spong (License, InspecUons, Environmental
Protection) about some specifics and find out the potenriat problem areas from historical
preservation perspectives. She would like to see an electrical inspector out there. Whatever that
electrical inspector they recommend is the most affordable, practical way to make ttus a safe
situation, he has another month on that. He has until mid September. If it is as he describes, he
is okay with that. The other stuff, she is willing to go 15 montYis on it.
Mr. Gausman asked is there any kind of city program for someone to help get his life back into
order. Ms. Moermond asked is he looking for programs for fixing his house, employment, or
what. Mr. Gausman responded it is hazd to work on it without resources. Ms. Seeley added
there aze agencies out there.
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LEGISLATIVE HEARING MINLTTES OF AUGUST 1, 2006 Page 5
Ms. Moermond stated she is familiar with the housing related programs but not the life type
programs.
Ms. Moermond would like an electrical inspector out there by mid-August. She is looking for
the electrical stuff to be done by mid September. She will give 15 months for the rest of the
items. She will tell Amy Spong and see if she is awaze of any proa ams and if the owner will run
into any bureaucratic problems. Also, she will bring it to the deparGment's attention that their
wording leads to misinterpretation of tl�eir intentions.
(Note: Ms. Moermond denied the appeal on the Deficiency List dated July 11, 2006.)
The hearing was adjourned at 2:40 p.m.
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