The URL can be used to link to this page

98-864a��A�. _ ,�%� CouncilFile#_�0=0�� v.`ns��.�.�.� e. Green Sheet # � a � � C RESOLUTION CITY OF SAINT PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented By Referred To Committee: Date 1 WHEREAS, the Saint Paul Firearms Company dba Saint Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 2 Perkins, President ("Applicant") has applied for a firearms license under Chapter 225 of the Saint 3 Paul Legislative Code far the premises at 634 North Snelling Avenue in Saint Paul (Application 4 No. 19980002267); and 6 WHEREAS, the current application is made by the same Applicant, for the same license, 7 for the same premises, with the same neighborhood group in opposition to the application, as was 8 previously considered by the City Council, and which application was denied after a full due 9 process hearing and on the record of such hearing; and 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 VJHEREAS, the Applicant has stated that there are facts concerning the current application, which are new or additional to those which were considered in the previous application; and WIIEREAS, the Legislative Hearing Officer has recommended under Section 310.04(d)(1) of the Saint Paul Leg�slative Code that this application be referred to an administrative law judge ("ALJ") from the Minnesota Office of Administrative Hearings ("OAH") for a hearing; now, therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this application be referred pursuant to Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code to an ALJ for hearing, and far the submission to the City Council by the ALJ of recommended fmdings of fact and conclusions of law, together with a recommendation for disposition of the application; and, be it �� 91i319� �R1GlNAL �g-S6� 2 FURTHER RESOLVEA, that the t1LJ is authorized and requested, to the e�ent 3 pernutted by ]aw and required by procedural due process, to use in the conduct of such heating, 4 the OAH Rules relating to discovery, requests or admissions of facts or opuuons, depositions to 5 preserve testimony, and subpoenas, which rules the Council hereby finds to be consistent with 6 Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code; and, be it 9 10 11 12 13 FURTHER RESOLVED, that the ALJ is requested, consistent with principles of collateral estoppel and procedural due process, not to relitigate or take testimony as to issues which weze determined in the previous hearing on the ApplicanYs fireanns license application, unless the parGies make a showing safisfactory to the ALJ that they intend to introduce evidence of material faats that (1) are relevant to the issues in this current hearing, and (2) relate to matters or events that have arisen since the previous hearing. Requested by Department of: Adoption Certified by Council Secretary By. � Approved by Mayor: Da a(i l�� sy: By: Form A ded by i ttorney $,.: � �l •Z3 - 9,�1 Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: Adopted by Council: Date �.!�_ ` ` \p S �R��1�Al� Council Rile # Green 62251 -S�� RESOLUTION CITY �F SAINj PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented Referred Committee Date 1 RESOLUED, that the Council of the City of Saint Paul hereby ceztifies and proves the September 16, 1998 2 decision of the Legislative Hearing Officer recommending referral to an 'nistrative Law Judge for a 3 Firearms License (ID 19980002267) by St. Paul Fireanns Company, D A St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 4 A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North; and 5 FURTHER RESOLVED, that this application is hereby 6 review. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Slake Cole Aarris Benanav Reit Bostrom Lantry an Administrative Law Judge for further Requested by Departznent of: � Form Approved by City Attorney � 14 Adopted by Counci Date 15 Adopfion Certif' d by Council Secretacy 16 By: 17 Approved Mayor: Date 18 By: Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: 1 City Council Gerry Strathman, 266-8575 September 23, 1998 xww� rc� TOTAL f OF SIGNATURE PAGES GREEN SHEET m�us�rse�etot �1� - �� No 6225�, �uurraa anw,e� ❑ GIYAlfOR1EY � ❑ tl1YCGWI ❑ xuwcw.�sacw. ❑ nwrauacreKero �r�vaelxVmr�xn ❑ (CLIP ALL LOCATIONS FOR SIGNATURE) Referring application for a Firearms License by St. Pau1 Firearms, ABA St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North, to an Administrative Law Judge. PLANNING CAMMISSION C�8 COMMRTEE CML SERVICE COMMISSION Fiec thi¢ PNaorJfirm everwnr{red untler a mNmdbrlMS deperlrnaM? YES NO Fas tltls peraoNfum wer Ceen a c{1Y �PbYa7 YES NO Do� mie W�soMrm paaeess a slaY not namapypoeseseed bf' am' arteM cilY �doYee YES NO h tltis R�+��rm a t�petetl `erMoYl YES NO ��'L',�ai� .�".r z;�3'�?'> 4' =�;°_.' LL AMOUNT OF TRANSACTION f )INO SOURCE C•-•i�/i:1a i 3:P73��T7ai3.7C.:�:i?;.^i�'. �,' �� YES NO cW. �NWRw'f10N (EXPWM OFF7CE OF LiCE'�, `SE, INSPECT10hS AND ENVIRON.MEN7'ALPROTEC?ION Robert Kusler. Direcior CITY OF SAINT PAITL LONRYPROFESS/O.VAL BU/LDING Norm Coteman, May�or Suite 300 350 Sr. Perer Streer SainlPaul, Mianesot¢ 55IO2-I510 LICENSE APPLICATION SUMD�ABY Date: 09/15/98 LicenseTD: #19980002267 License Applicant: Gregg Perkins 634 Snellang Avenue N. License Type: Fireanns License Conditions: See Attachment Reqirements: 1) Applicarion & Fees 2) Zoning Approval 3) Fire - C of O Approval 4) Record Check Pending Adverse Actions: None Cnrrent Licensee: Gregg Perkins Second Hand Dealer License Expiration 70/14/1998 Met Yes Yes Yes Yes �$-��H Telephone.'612-266-9090 Fatsimtle: 612-?66-9099 b11-366-97Z4 q B .g6� CONDITIONS FOR ST PAUL FIREARMS COMPANY 634 S\ELLING AVE N (GREGG FERKINS} 1. The floor azea devoted to the sale of guns and anununirion may not exceed 50% of the gross floor area af the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed ihe majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonable format deemed acceptable by this office for the purpose of determining the percenta�e of business derived from the sale of firearms and anmiunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federal law ar regulation relating to the sa1e, possession, use, transportarion, discharge or storage of fireanns or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as requSred by applicable state and federal law and regulations (including MN Stat. 624.7161). 5. No person under 18 shall be permitted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shail be pemutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of'state or federal law ox regulations. The a�e of all firearms purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License or other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shall be allowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireanns in the store windows wluch are visible to passersby on the street. 7. Licensee shall seli all firearnis and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall consritute sufficient grounds for adverse action against ali licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. y�-��- MII�TLTTSS OF THE LEGISLATIVE HEARING 5T. PAUL FII2EARMS, 634 SNELLING AVENLTE NORTH September 16, 1998 Room 330, City Ha11 Gerry Strathman, Legislafive Hearing O�cer Gerry Strathman called the meeting to order at 10:02 a.m. Staff Present: Christine Rozek, License, Inspections, Environmental Protection (LIEP); Lawrence Zangs, LIEP Gerry Strathman stated this is a hearing on behalf of the City Council. The purpose of this hearing is to take testimony regarding objections that have been raised to the issuance of a Class 3 Firearms License to Gregg Perkins at 634 Sneliing Avenue North. Mr. Perkins has received copies of all written objections. Mr. Strathman will make one of three recommendations at the end of this hearing: 1) If the objections aze wholly without merit, the recommendation will be the license should be appxoved; 2) ff there are conditions added to the license that aze acceptable to the people making the objections and to the license holder, then the recommendation will be approval of the license with conditions; 3) A recommendarion ta the Council that this matter be teferred to an Administrarive Law Judge (ALJ) for a complete hearing to deternune issue of fact and law that would be used to inform the City Council in making their fmal decision on this matter. Christine Rozek reported all the requirements have been met: the applications and fees have been submitted, zoning has been approved, the Fire Department has approved the certificate of occupancy, and a record check has been done and it is fine. There are no pending adverse actions against the license. The cunent licensee is Gregg Perkins who has a second hand dealer license which expires IQ-14-98. The recommendation of LIEP is approval with eight conditions, which are as follows: 1. The floor area devoCed to the sale of guns and ammuni6on may not exceed 50% of the gross floar area of the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed the majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonabie format deemed acceptable by this office far the purpose of deternuning the percentage of business derived from the sale of firearms and ammunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federallaw or regulation relating to the sale, possession, use, transportation, discharge or storage of firearms or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as required by applicable state and federallaw and regulations (including NiN Stat. 62A.7161). y � �� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PALTL FIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 2 5. No persons under 18 shall be pernutted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shall be pernutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of state or federal law or regulaUons. The age of all fireanns purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License ar other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shali be aliowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireazms in the store windows which ate visible to passerbys on the street. 7. Licensee shall set all firearms and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall constitute sufficient grounds for adverse action against all licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. Christine Rozek stated these conditions have not been presented to the licensee nor agreed to by the licensee. Lawrence Zangs stated he is a zoning specialist and met the attorney Dave Feinwachs at the property. A measurement was taken of the area where firearms would be sold versus the second hand dealer antique merchandise. Mr. Zangs' calculations would put the area devoted to fireazms sales at 39'/i% of the floor azea. The gun shop definition is 50% of the area, therefore the store is in compliance with the zoning ordinance. Kathieen Winters, 14&3 Breda Avenue, appeared and asked was everything included in the measurement, office space, restroom, etc., when the gross floor space was calculated. Gerry Strathman stated the implications is that the restroom, office space, and storage areas are being contributed to non firearms space in the calculations. Larry Zangs responded the gross store area includes the restroom, bathroom, etc. Mr. Stratbman stated it is 39% of the square footage of the building space, but it would be more than 39% of the retail space. He asked how much retail space there is excluding bathroom, storage, offices, etc. Mr. Zangs responded he can figure for restrooms, however the office area is just a desk in the corner. Mr. Strathman stated if the restroom space is subtracted, less than 50% of the space is devoted to firearm sales. Mr. Zangs stating he could run some calculations, but agreed with Mr. Strathman's estimate. Laura Melnick, 1697 Englewood Avenue, speaking on behalf of the Hamline Midway Neighborhood Stability Coalition, appeared and went over the three primary reasons the license should be denied. 1) The Firearms Dealers license should be denied because the applicant intends to use sham sales to meet the gross annual sales requirement. The applicant and his atCorney indicated, in prior proceedings and in public, an intentlon to maintain compliance wlth the code by inflating sales. At the end of the compliance year, if the sale of firearm items is creeping over 50% of gross annual sales, the applicanYs friends will purchase non fireanns items to inflate the sales. The licensee has indicated in the past a desire to create a outlet store outside the City limits to funnei sales of firearms to keep gross sales under 50%. 2) The license should � I.EGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL PIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 3 be denied because the applicant cannot be trusted to meet the zoning codes floor space requirement. In 1996, the applicant altered the shop's floar plan shortly after an inspection by L1EP. Members of the coalition were invited to come in and measure; the measurements showed a distinct variauon than the measurement tal:en by Mr. Zangs. The applicant has been quoted as saying there are ways of getting around the law. 3) The applicant is not a fit licensee. He has gone out of his way to inflame neigJ�borhood tensions. The applicant has taken actions appalling to the general public. Offensive signs have been put in the window. There is not a sufficient number of facts to wanant the expenditure of money and time involved in a new hearing before an ALJ. Joe Petroski, 1636 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated he has lived in this neighborhood since 1991. Mr. Peuoski is a business owner himself. There should be more of an investigation into this license. There was no basis for Gregg Perkins to get his license initially. Mr. Perkins received his license because he took it. He did not do anything appropriately. There is no need for the residents to be here. According to the crime reports, there was not much crime in the axea before this gun shop opened for business. There were two break ins at the property in wbich 19 guns were stolen. The neighborhood is doing well, but Mr. Perkins is bringing Che neighborhood down. Laura Sweney, 1424 Sherburne Avenue, appeazed and stated the neighborhood is saying they have been through this situation enough times. Gregg Perkins is continuing to harass the neighbors. Ae is hurting the ability far residents to feel safe in the neighborhood. Ms. Sweney feels Mr. Perkins bates the people in Saint Paul and the people in the dist�ict, Heidi Wrenson, 1794 Hewitt Avenue, appeazed and stated she has lived in the neighborhood for ten years. It is ctucial for her to raise her chiidren in a socially and economically mixed neighborhood thaC is safe. A firearms store is frightening. Ms. Wrenson had some sympathy in the beginning because she comes from a working class family of people who have started sma11 businesses. The taunting with the signs has changed her attitude taward the store. The Nazi memorabilia bothers her. Karen Chupot, 1500 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated the community has said no to this issue. The Hamline Midway area received a large grant a few years ago because the area met all the criteria of a neighborhood in trouble. The residents have worked hazd to keep the neighborhood stable. Studies show violence is part oP the accessibility of f3rearms. Davad Gagne, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeared and stated the issue of pubiic safety is a united effort by all the businesses. In February, there was an escalation of the antagonism among Gregg Perkins, Dave Feinwachs, and the neighborhood. Part of Mr. Gagne's job is visiting every business in the strip to talk to them about the problems and crime in the area. Last November through February, theze was an increase in violence in 11 businesses along the street. Mr. Gagne notified businesses of what they could do to protect themselves. Mr. Gagne entered St. Paul Firearms and left his business cazd. He received a phone message from Mr. Feinwachs who y �-�� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL FII2EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 4 indicated Mr. GaD e shouid no longer enter the store, he should no longer attempt to talk to Mr. Perkins, and should only deal with Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne was also called a name by Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne feels the presence of a business that does not want to work with the neighborhood effects the safety of the neighborhood and the businesses. Jody Bentley, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeazed and stated she has three points to express: 1) Hamline Midway Coalition Boazd of Directars objects to the issuance of this license based on the peCition. The business is a nuisance. 2) The community is trying Co keep Snelling Avenue a vital corridor. 3) The business is located next to a playground which is across the street from the fireatms store. It has been a relief to have the inventory of firearms and related items gone. Ms. Bentley stated te notice of this hearing was sent out too late for her to find out how people are reacting to this business. Bill Maloney, 1744 Hewitk Avenue, appeared and stated given that Gerry Strathman cannot do anything but recommend that this matter be turned over to an ALJ, Mr. Maloney supports this decision. This issue is a matter of trust. Mr. Maloney said aC tbe first community meetina that trust was earned and not bestowed. Gregg Perlins has not been able to build trust in the community during his years of operating a business there. (There being no one else to speak in opposirion, the license holder and his representative spoke next.) Dave Feinwachs, attorney for Gregg Perkins and St. Paul Firearms Company, appeazed. He admitted that he did call David Gagne a name. Aowever, the issue here is a group of people who dislike Gregg Perkins. None of this is relevant Yo the issue of this license. Most of the people of the community are fine. The Hamline Midway Coalition feels if their members do not like a particulaz business, then that business cannot operate in the neighborhood. The coalition went to Mr. Perkins and other business owners to tell them that crime had run rampant in the neighborhood because of this business. As for sham sales, business owners are seldom patronized by their enemies. If Mr. Perkins was not patronized by his friends, he would not have stayed in business. As for opening an outlet store outside Saint Paul, Mr. Perkins has every right to do that if he would like. Saint Paul has no jurisdiction outside iYs boundaries. The notion the applicant is not a fit licensee because he makes fun of these people or because they dislike each other is not a reason to deny the license. Mr. Perkins does not have to pay homage to the coalition, pay a membership fee, or do what they want in order to have a business in the neighborhood. The coalition does not run the community. Mr. Feinwachs stated his client has a complete, well developed record as a result af two hearings. There aze numerous findings. There are no facts in controversy. This shouid guide Gerry Strathman's actions. Gerry Strathman asked were the eight conditions suggested by the LIEP acceptabie. Dave Feinwachs responded these are the same conditions always imposed on the license. The conditions are accepted. If the owner and he decide to challenge the conditions, they will do so in court at a later date. y � s�� LEGISLATIVE HEAR.IIVG FOR ST. PAUL FIR.EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 5 Gregg Perkins, owner, appeared and stated there are problems between his attorney and the neighbors. In 1993, Mr. Perkins attended a neighborhood meeting. People hollered in his face and made obscene gestures. Mr. Perkins stated he did not expect that reacfion. Other City officials apologized for the behavior. Mr. Perkins stated he has tried to be a gracious neighbor. David Gagne has entered the store and spoke to Mr. Perkins on several occasions. If there is a problem between Mr. Gagne and Mr. Perkins, Mr. Perkins does not think he can do anything about iY. Mr. Perkins takes issue wlYh ihe widespread issue of his firearms store. He has many friends and customers. Not everyone shares the views of the group that is opposing him. All requirements have been met. The laws to protect him seem nothing to the coalition. The coalifion speaks of diversity and tolerance, but they act in a different way. Mr. Perkins asked what interest is a business community if it is not diverse. There seems to be an effort by a small group of people that want to exclude certain types of businesses and include other. Mr. Perkins stated he does not have an as to grind, but he does have a business he would like to run. Gerry Strathman stated there will be one more opporiunity for people to speak. Kathieen Winter stated Gregg Perkins indicated that if there are tensions between business and his attorney, it is because of his attorney. When there is a representation relationship, it is tough for the client to disavow what the attorney says on the clienYs behalf. The City Council had detemuned the client is not a fit ]icensee because the owner has operated the business in a matter intentionally calculated to annoy the neighborhood. The Council has a right to expect that persons liaensed ta sell firearms do not deliberately pick fights with neighbors and seek to inflame community tensions for mean spirited reasons. As for sham sales, the City Council said it was not reasonable to expend the kind of resources to check on this business to ensure it will stay in compliance. The owners have said repeatedly they intent to bring friends in to boost sales if they need to. 7oe Petrowski stated the owner and his representative do not care about the community. The attomey said they will not contest the conditions now, but may at a later date, therefore they ue pushing the law. It is tme that t6e Hatnline Midway Coalition was organized_ If the owner was honest up front, the business would be okay. Mr. Petrowski stated he does not belong to the coalition, however he has called City Council members and told them he does not want the business in the neighborhood. Dave Feinwachs stated nothing has changed since the last application. The City gave Gregg Perkins his first license. The evidence of this is the videotape of the City Counci] meeting. There were days of hearings. Mr. Perkins has done nothing wrong in five years except for having the bad judgement of leaving his brother-in-law in the store who sold cigarettes to a minor. There are no facts in controversy. It is position of the people here that they have to like Mr. Perkins in order for him to have a business. Garty Strathman asked the group do the conditions lead them to drop their opposition to the issuance of this license. Laura Melnick responded most of the conditions are part of State ar City 1 y LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAiJL FIREt1RMS, 9-16-98 Page 6 law. These conditions are similar to what was on the license in the past. Mr. Strathman asked would other conditions lead them to drop their objections. Ms. Melnick responded no given the history and the complete lack of trust in the appiicanYs abIliry to comply with any conditions. Mr. Strathman asked was she a spokesperson for the group. (The D oup indicated that she was.) Without making findings of fact or law, Mr. Strathman concluded there is a reasonable basis to conclude there may be grounds for rejecting this license. Gerry Strathman recommended to the City Council that this matter be referred to an Administrative Law Judge to make the appropriate determinations of fact and law in order for them to make the final decision regarding issuance of this licanse. The meefing was adjoumed at 11:17 a.m. rrn a��A�. _ ,�%� CouncilFile#_�0=0�� v.`ns��.�.�.� e. Green Sheet # � a � � C RESOLUTION CITY OF SAINT PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented By Referred To Committee: Date 1 WHEREAS, the Saint Paul Firearms Company dba Saint Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 2 Perkins, President ("Applicant") has applied for a firearms license under Chapter 225 of the Saint 3 Paul Legislative Code far the premises at 634 North Snelling Avenue in Saint Paul (Application 4 No. 19980002267); and 6 WHEREAS, the current application is made by the same Applicant, for the same license, 7 for the same premises, with the same neighborhood group in opposition to the application, as was 8 previously considered by the City Council, and which application was denied after a full due 9 process hearing and on the record of such hearing; and 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 VJHEREAS, the Applicant has stated that there are facts concerning the current application, which are new or additional to those which were considered in the previous application; and WIIEREAS, the Legislative Hearing Officer has recommended under Section 310.04(d)(1) of the Saint Paul Leg�slative Code that this application be referred to an administrative law judge ("ALJ") from the Minnesota Office of Administrative Hearings ("OAH") for a hearing; now, therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this application be referred pursuant to Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code to an ALJ for hearing, and far the submission to the City Council by the ALJ of recommended fmdings of fact and conclusions of law, together with a recommendation for disposition of the application; and, be it �� 91i319� �R1GlNAL �g-S6� 2 FURTHER RESOLVEA, that the t1LJ is authorized and requested, to the e�ent 3 pernutted by ]aw and required by procedural due process, to use in the conduct of such heating, 4 the OAH Rules relating to discovery, requests or admissions of facts or opuuons, depositions to 5 preserve testimony, and subpoenas, which rules the Council hereby finds to be consistent with 6 Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code; and, be it 9 10 11 12 13 FURTHER RESOLVED, that the ALJ is requested, consistent with principles of collateral estoppel and procedural due process, not to relitigate or take testimony as to issues which weze determined in the previous hearing on the ApplicanYs fireanns license application, unless the parGies make a showing safisfactory to the ALJ that they intend to introduce evidence of material faats that (1) are relevant to the issues in this current hearing, and (2) relate to matters or events that have arisen since the previous hearing. Requested by Department of: Adoption Certified by Council Secretary By. � Approved by Mayor: Da a(i l�� sy: By: Form A ded by i ttorney $,.: � �l •Z3 - 9,�1 Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: Adopted by Council: Date �.!�_ ` ` \p S �R��1�Al� Council Rile # Green 62251 -S�� RESOLUTION CITY �F SAINj PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented Referred Committee Date 1 RESOLUED, that the Council of the City of Saint Paul hereby ceztifies and proves the September 16, 1998 2 decision of the Legislative Hearing Officer recommending referral to an 'nistrative Law Judge for a 3 Firearms License (ID 19980002267) by St. Paul Fireanns Company, D A St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 4 A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North; and 5 FURTHER RESOLVED, that this application is hereby 6 review. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Slake Cole Aarris Benanav Reit Bostrom Lantry an Administrative Law Judge for further Requested by Departznent of: � Form Approved by City Attorney � 14 Adopted by Counci Date 15 Adopfion Certif' d by Council Secretacy 16 By: 17 Approved Mayor: Date 18 By: Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: 1 City Council Gerry Strathman, 266-8575 September 23, 1998 xww� rc� TOTAL f OF SIGNATURE PAGES GREEN SHEET m�us�rse�etot �1� - �� No 6225�, �uurraa anw,e� ❑ GIYAlfOR1EY � ❑ tl1YCGWI ❑ xuwcw.�sacw. ❑ nwrauacreKero �r�vaelxVmr�xn ❑ (CLIP ALL LOCATIONS FOR SIGNATURE) Referring application for a Firearms License by St. Pau1 Firearms, ABA St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North, to an Administrative Law Judge. PLANNING CAMMISSION C�8 COMMRTEE CML SERVICE COMMISSION Fiec thi¢ PNaorJfirm everwnr{red untler a mNmdbrlMS deperlrnaM? YES NO Fas tltls peraoNfum wer Ceen a c{1Y �PbYa7 YES NO Do� mie W�soMrm paaeess a slaY not namapypoeseseed bf' am' arteM cilY �doYee YES NO h tltis R�+��rm a t�petetl `erMoYl YES NO ��'L',�ai� .�".r z;�3'�?'> 4' =�;°_.' LL AMOUNT OF TRANSACTION f )INO SOURCE C•-•i�/i:1a i 3:P73��T7ai3.7C.:�:i?;.^i�'. �,' �� YES NO cW. �NWRw'f10N (EXPWM OFF7CE OF LiCE'�, `SE, INSPECT10hS AND ENVIRON.MEN7'ALPROTEC?ION Robert Kusler. Direcior CITY OF SAINT PAITL LONRYPROFESS/O.VAL BU/LDING Norm Coteman, May�or Suite 300 350 Sr. Perer Streer SainlPaul, Mianesot¢ 55IO2-I510 LICENSE APPLICATION SUMD�ABY Date: 09/15/98 LicenseTD: #19980002267 License Applicant: Gregg Perkins 634 Snellang Avenue N. License Type: Fireanns License Conditions: See Attachment Reqirements: 1) Applicarion & Fees 2) Zoning Approval 3) Fire - C of O Approval 4) Record Check Pending Adverse Actions: None Cnrrent Licensee: Gregg Perkins Second Hand Dealer License Expiration 70/14/1998 Met Yes Yes Yes Yes �$-��H Telephone.'612-266-9090 Fatsimtle: 612-?66-9099 b11-366-97Z4 q B .g6� CONDITIONS FOR ST PAUL FIREARMS COMPANY 634 S\ELLING AVE N (GREGG FERKINS} 1. The floor azea devoted to the sale of guns and anununirion may not exceed 50% of the gross floor area af the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed ihe majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonable format deemed acceptable by this office for the purpose of determining the percenta�e of business derived from the sale of firearms and anmiunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federal law ar regulation relating to the sa1e, possession, use, transportarion, discharge or storage of fireanns or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as requSred by applicable state and federal law and regulations (including MN Stat. 624.7161). 5. No person under 18 shall be permitted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shail be pemutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of'state or federal law ox regulations. The a�e of all firearms purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License or other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shall be allowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireanns in the store windows wluch are visible to passersby on the street. 7. Licensee shall seli all firearnis and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall consritute sufficient grounds for adverse action against ali licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. y�-��- MII�TLTTSS OF THE LEGISLATIVE HEARING 5T. PAUL FII2EARMS, 634 SNELLING AVENLTE NORTH September 16, 1998 Room 330, City Ha11 Gerry Strathman, Legislafive Hearing O�cer Gerry Strathman called the meeting to order at 10:02 a.m. Staff Present: Christine Rozek, License, Inspections, Environmental Protection (LIEP); Lawrence Zangs, LIEP Gerry Strathman stated this is a hearing on behalf of the City Council. The purpose of this hearing is to take testimony regarding objections that have been raised to the issuance of a Class 3 Firearms License to Gregg Perkins at 634 Sneliing Avenue North. Mr. Perkins has received copies of all written objections. Mr. Strathman will make one of three recommendations at the end of this hearing: 1) If the objections aze wholly without merit, the recommendation will be the license should be appxoved; 2) ff there are conditions added to the license that aze acceptable to the people making the objections and to the license holder, then the recommendation will be approval of the license with conditions; 3) A recommendarion ta the Council that this matter be teferred to an Administrarive Law Judge (ALJ) for a complete hearing to deternune issue of fact and law that would be used to inform the City Council in making their fmal decision on this matter. Christine Rozek reported all the requirements have been met: the applications and fees have been submitted, zoning has been approved, the Fire Department has approved the certificate of occupancy, and a record check has been done and it is fine. There are no pending adverse actions against the license. The cunent licensee is Gregg Perkins who has a second hand dealer license which expires IQ-14-98. The recommendation of LIEP is approval with eight conditions, which are as follows: 1. The floor area devoCed to the sale of guns and ammuni6on may not exceed 50% of the gross floar area of the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed the majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonabie format deemed acceptable by this office far the purpose of deternuning the percentage of business derived from the sale of firearms and ammunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federallaw or regulation relating to the sale, possession, use, transportation, discharge or storage of firearms or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as required by applicable state and federallaw and regulations (including NiN Stat. 62A.7161). y � �� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PALTL FIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 2 5. No persons under 18 shall be pernutted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shall be pernutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of state or federal law or regulaUons. The age of all fireanns purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License ar other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shali be aliowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireazms in the store windows which ate visible to passerbys on the street. 7. Licensee shall set all firearms and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall constitute sufficient grounds for adverse action against all licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. Christine Rozek stated these conditions have not been presented to the licensee nor agreed to by the licensee. Lawrence Zangs stated he is a zoning specialist and met the attorney Dave Feinwachs at the property. A measurement was taken of the area where firearms would be sold versus the second hand dealer antique merchandise. Mr. Zangs' calculations would put the area devoted to fireazms sales at 39'/i% of the floor azea. The gun shop definition is 50% of the area, therefore the store is in compliance with the zoning ordinance. Kathieen Winters, 14&3 Breda Avenue, appeared and asked was everything included in the measurement, office space, restroom, etc., when the gross floor space was calculated. Gerry Strathman stated the implications is that the restroom, office space, and storage areas are being contributed to non firearms space in the calculations. Larry Zangs responded the gross store area includes the restroom, bathroom, etc. Mr. Stratbman stated it is 39% of the square footage of the building space, but it would be more than 39% of the retail space. He asked how much retail space there is excluding bathroom, storage, offices, etc. Mr. Zangs responded he can figure for restrooms, however the office area is just a desk in the corner. Mr. Strathman stated if the restroom space is subtracted, less than 50% of the space is devoted to firearm sales. Mr. Zangs stating he could run some calculations, but agreed with Mr. Strathman's estimate. Laura Melnick, 1697 Englewood Avenue, speaking on behalf of the Hamline Midway Neighborhood Stability Coalition, appeared and went over the three primary reasons the license should be denied. 1) The Firearms Dealers license should be denied because the applicant intends to use sham sales to meet the gross annual sales requirement. The applicant and his atCorney indicated, in prior proceedings and in public, an intentlon to maintain compliance wlth the code by inflating sales. At the end of the compliance year, if the sale of firearm items is creeping over 50% of gross annual sales, the applicanYs friends will purchase non fireanns items to inflate the sales. The licensee has indicated in the past a desire to create a outlet store outside the City limits to funnei sales of firearms to keep gross sales under 50%. 2) The license should � I.EGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL PIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 3 be denied because the applicant cannot be trusted to meet the zoning codes floor space requirement. In 1996, the applicant altered the shop's floar plan shortly after an inspection by L1EP. Members of the coalition were invited to come in and measure; the measurements showed a distinct variauon than the measurement tal:en by Mr. Zangs. The applicant has been quoted as saying there are ways of getting around the law. 3) The applicant is not a fit licensee. He has gone out of his way to inflame neigJ�borhood tensions. The applicant has taken actions appalling to the general public. Offensive signs have been put in the window. There is not a sufficient number of facts to wanant the expenditure of money and time involved in a new hearing before an ALJ. Joe Petroski, 1636 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated he has lived in this neighborhood since 1991. Mr. Peuoski is a business owner himself. There should be more of an investigation into this license. There was no basis for Gregg Perkins to get his license initially. Mr. Perkins received his license because he took it. He did not do anything appropriately. There is no need for the residents to be here. According to the crime reports, there was not much crime in the axea before this gun shop opened for business. There were two break ins at the property in wbich 19 guns were stolen. The neighborhood is doing well, but Mr. Perkins is bringing Che neighborhood down. Laura Sweney, 1424 Sherburne Avenue, appeazed and stated the neighborhood is saying they have been through this situation enough times. Gregg Perkins is continuing to harass the neighbors. Ae is hurting the ability far residents to feel safe in the neighborhood. Ms. Sweney feels Mr. Perkins bates the people in Saint Paul and the people in the dist�ict, Heidi Wrenson, 1794 Hewitt Avenue, appeazed and stated she has lived in the neighborhood for ten years. It is ctucial for her to raise her chiidren in a socially and economically mixed neighborhood thaC is safe. A firearms store is frightening. Ms. Wrenson had some sympathy in the beginning because she comes from a working class family of people who have started sma11 businesses. The taunting with the signs has changed her attitude taward the store. The Nazi memorabilia bothers her. Karen Chupot, 1500 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated the community has said no to this issue. The Hamline Midway area received a large grant a few years ago because the area met all the criteria of a neighborhood in trouble. The residents have worked hazd to keep the neighborhood stable. Studies show violence is part oP the accessibility of f3rearms. Davad Gagne, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeared and stated the issue of pubiic safety is a united effort by all the businesses. In February, there was an escalation of the antagonism among Gregg Perkins, Dave Feinwachs, and the neighborhood. Part of Mr. Gagne's job is visiting every business in the strip to talk to them about the problems and crime in the area. Last November through February, theze was an increase in violence in 11 businesses along the street. Mr. Gagne notified businesses of what they could do to protect themselves. Mr. Gagne entered St. Paul Firearms and left his business cazd. He received a phone message from Mr. Feinwachs who y �-�� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL FII2EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 4 indicated Mr. GaD e shouid no longer enter the store, he should no longer attempt to talk to Mr. Perkins, and should only deal with Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne was also called a name by Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne feels the presence of a business that does not want to work with the neighborhood effects the safety of the neighborhood and the businesses. Jody Bentley, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeazed and stated she has three points to express: 1) Hamline Midway Coalition Boazd of Directars objects to the issuance of this license based on the peCition. The business is a nuisance. 2) The community is trying Co keep Snelling Avenue a vital corridor. 3) The business is located next to a playground which is across the street from the fireatms store. It has been a relief to have the inventory of firearms and related items gone. Ms. Bentley stated te notice of this hearing was sent out too late for her to find out how people are reacting to this business. Bill Maloney, 1744 Hewitk Avenue, appeared and stated given that Gerry Strathman cannot do anything but recommend that this matter be turned over to an ALJ, Mr. Maloney supports this decision. This issue is a matter of trust. Mr. Maloney said aC tbe first community meetina that trust was earned and not bestowed. Gregg Perlins has not been able to build trust in the community during his years of operating a business there. (There being no one else to speak in opposirion, the license holder and his representative spoke next.) Dave Feinwachs, attorney for Gregg Perkins and St. Paul Firearms Company, appeazed. He admitted that he did call David Gagne a name. Aowever, the issue here is a group of people who dislike Gregg Perkins. None of this is relevant Yo the issue of this license. Most of the people of the community are fine. The Hamline Midway Coalition feels if their members do not like a particulaz business, then that business cannot operate in the neighborhood. The coalition went to Mr. Perkins and other business owners to tell them that crime had run rampant in the neighborhood because of this business. As for sham sales, business owners are seldom patronized by their enemies. If Mr. Perkins was not patronized by his friends, he would not have stayed in business. As for opening an outlet store outside Saint Paul, Mr. Perkins has every right to do that if he would like. Saint Paul has no jurisdiction outside iYs boundaries. The notion the applicant is not a fit licensee because he makes fun of these people or because they dislike each other is not a reason to deny the license. Mr. Perkins does not have to pay homage to the coalition, pay a membership fee, or do what they want in order to have a business in the neighborhood. The coalition does not run the community. Mr. Feinwachs stated his client has a complete, well developed record as a result af two hearings. There aze numerous findings. There are no facts in controversy. This shouid guide Gerry Strathman's actions. Gerry Strathman asked were the eight conditions suggested by the LIEP acceptabie. Dave Feinwachs responded these are the same conditions always imposed on the license. The conditions are accepted. If the owner and he decide to challenge the conditions, they will do so in court at a later date. y � s�� LEGISLATIVE HEAR.IIVG FOR ST. PAUL FIR.EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 5 Gregg Perkins, owner, appeared and stated there are problems between his attorney and the neighbors. In 1993, Mr. Perkins attended a neighborhood meeting. People hollered in his face and made obscene gestures. Mr. Perkins stated he did not expect that reacfion. Other City officials apologized for the behavior. Mr. Perkins stated he has tried to be a gracious neighbor. David Gagne has entered the store and spoke to Mr. Perkins on several occasions. If there is a problem between Mr. Gagne and Mr. Perkins, Mr. Perkins does not think he can do anything about iY. Mr. Perkins takes issue wlYh ihe widespread issue of his firearms store. He has many friends and customers. Not everyone shares the views of the group that is opposing him. All requirements have been met. The laws to protect him seem nothing to the coalition. The coalifion speaks of diversity and tolerance, but they act in a different way. Mr. Perkins asked what interest is a business community if it is not diverse. There seems to be an effort by a small group of people that want to exclude certain types of businesses and include other. Mr. Perkins stated he does not have an as to grind, but he does have a business he would like to run. Gerry Strathman stated there will be one more opporiunity for people to speak. Kathieen Winter stated Gregg Perkins indicated that if there are tensions between business and his attorney, it is because of his attorney. When there is a representation relationship, it is tough for the client to disavow what the attorney says on the clienYs behalf. The City Council had detemuned the client is not a fit ]icensee because the owner has operated the business in a matter intentionally calculated to annoy the neighborhood. The Council has a right to expect that persons liaensed ta sell firearms do not deliberately pick fights with neighbors and seek to inflame community tensions for mean spirited reasons. As for sham sales, the City Council said it was not reasonable to expend the kind of resources to check on this business to ensure it will stay in compliance. The owners have said repeatedly they intent to bring friends in to boost sales if they need to. 7oe Petrowski stated the owner and his representative do not care about the community. The attomey said they will not contest the conditions now, but may at a later date, therefore they ue pushing the law. It is tme that t6e Hatnline Midway Coalition was organized_ If the owner was honest up front, the business would be okay. Mr. Petrowski stated he does not belong to the coalition, however he has called City Council members and told them he does not want the business in the neighborhood. Dave Feinwachs stated nothing has changed since the last application. The City gave Gregg Perkins his first license. The evidence of this is the videotape of the City Counci] meeting. There were days of hearings. Mr. Perkins has done nothing wrong in five years except for having the bad judgement of leaving his brother-in-law in the store who sold cigarettes to a minor. There are no facts in controversy. It is position of the people here that they have to like Mr. Perkins in order for him to have a business. Garty Strathman asked the group do the conditions lead them to drop their opposition to the issuance of this license. Laura Melnick responded most of the conditions are part of State ar City 1 y LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAiJL FIREt1RMS, 9-16-98 Page 6 law. These conditions are similar to what was on the license in the past. Mr. Strathman asked would other conditions lead them to drop their objections. Ms. Melnick responded no given the history and the complete lack of trust in the appiicanYs abIliry to comply with any conditions. Mr. Strathman asked was she a spokesperson for the group. (The D oup indicated that she was.) Without making findings of fact or law, Mr. Strathman concluded there is a reasonable basis to conclude there may be grounds for rejecting this license. Gerry Strathman recommended to the City Council that this matter be referred to an Administrative Law Judge to make the appropriate determinations of fact and law in order for them to make the final decision regarding issuance of this licanse. The meefing was adjoumed at 11:17 a.m. rrn a��A�. _ ,�%� CouncilFile#_�0=0�� v.`ns��.�.�.� e. Green Sheet # � a � � C RESOLUTION CITY OF SAINT PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented By Referred To Committee: Date 1 WHEREAS, the Saint Paul Firearms Company dba Saint Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 2 Perkins, President ("Applicant") has applied for a firearms license under Chapter 225 of the Saint 3 Paul Legislative Code far the premises at 634 North Snelling Avenue in Saint Paul (Application 4 No. 19980002267); and 6 WHEREAS, the current application is made by the same Applicant, for the same license, 7 for the same premises, with the same neighborhood group in opposition to the application, as was 8 previously considered by the City Council, and which application was denied after a full due 9 process hearing and on the record of such hearing; and 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 VJHEREAS, the Applicant has stated that there are facts concerning the current application, which are new or additional to those which were considered in the previous application; and WIIEREAS, the Legislative Hearing Officer has recommended under Section 310.04(d)(1) of the Saint Paul Leg�slative Code that this application be referred to an administrative law judge ("ALJ") from the Minnesota Office of Administrative Hearings ("OAH") for a hearing; now, therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this application be referred pursuant to Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code to an ALJ for hearing, and far the submission to the City Council by the ALJ of recommended fmdings of fact and conclusions of law, together with a recommendation for disposition of the application; and, be it �� 91i319� �R1GlNAL �g-S6� 2 FURTHER RESOLVEA, that the t1LJ is authorized and requested, to the e�ent 3 pernutted by ]aw and required by procedural due process, to use in the conduct of such heating, 4 the OAH Rules relating to discovery, requests or admissions of facts or opuuons, depositions to 5 preserve testimony, and subpoenas, which rules the Council hereby finds to be consistent with 6 Section 310.05 of the Saint Paul Legislative Code; and, be it 9 10 11 12 13 FURTHER RESOLVED, that the ALJ is requested, consistent with principles of collateral estoppel and procedural due process, not to relitigate or take testimony as to issues which weze determined in the previous hearing on the ApplicanYs fireanns license application, unless the parGies make a showing safisfactory to the ALJ that they intend to introduce evidence of material faats that (1) are relevant to the issues in this current hearing, and (2) relate to matters or events that have arisen since the previous hearing. Requested by Department of: Adoption Certified by Council Secretary By. � Approved by Mayor: Da a(i l�� sy: By: Form A ded by i ttorney $,.: � �l •Z3 - 9,�1 Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: Adopted by Council: Date �.!�_ ` ` \p S �R��1�Al� Council Rile # Green 62251 -S�� RESOLUTION CITY �F SAINj PAUL, MINNESOTA Presented Referred Committee Date 1 RESOLUED, that the Council of the City of Saint Paul hereby ceztifies and proves the September 16, 1998 2 decision of the Legislative Hearing Officer recommending referral to an 'nistrative Law Judge for a 3 Firearms License (ID 19980002267) by St. Paul Fireanns Company, D A St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg 4 A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North; and 5 FURTHER RESOLVED, that this application is hereby 6 review. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Slake Cole Aarris Benanav Reit Bostrom Lantry an Administrative Law Judge for further Requested by Departznent of: � Form Approved by City Attorney � 14 Adopted by Counci Date 15 Adopfion Certif' d by Council Secretacy 16 By: 17 Approved Mayor: Date 18 By: Approved by Mayor for Submission to Council By: 1 City Council Gerry Strathman, 266-8575 September 23, 1998 xww� rc� TOTAL f OF SIGNATURE PAGES GREEN SHEET m�us�rse�etot �1� - �� No 6225�, �uurraa anw,e� ❑ GIYAlfOR1EY � ❑ tl1YCGWI ❑ xuwcw.�sacw. ❑ nwrauacreKero �r�vaelxVmr�xn ❑ (CLIP ALL LOCATIONS FOR SIGNATURE) Referring application for a Firearms License by St. Pau1 Firearms, ABA St. Paul Firearms Company, Gregg A. Perkins, President, 634 Snelling Avenue North, to an Administrative Law Judge. PLANNING CAMMISSION C�8 COMMRTEE CML SERVICE COMMISSION Fiec thi¢ PNaorJfirm everwnr{red untler a mNmdbrlMS deperlrnaM? YES NO Fas tltls peraoNfum wer Ceen a c{1Y �PbYa7 YES NO Do� mie W�soMrm paaeess a slaY not namapypoeseseed bf' am' arteM cilY �doYee YES NO h tltis R�+��rm a t�petetl `erMoYl YES NO ��'L',�ai� .�".r z;�3'�?'> 4' =�;°_.' LL AMOUNT OF TRANSACTION f )INO SOURCE C•-•i�/i:1a i 3:P73��T7ai3.7C.:�:i?;.^i�'. �,' �� YES NO cW. �NWRw'f10N (EXPWM OFF7CE OF LiCE'�, `SE, INSPECT10hS AND ENVIRON.MEN7'ALPROTEC?ION Robert Kusler. Direcior CITY OF SAINT PAITL LONRYPROFESS/O.VAL BU/LDING Norm Coteman, May�or Suite 300 350 Sr. Perer Streer SainlPaul, Mianesot¢ 55IO2-I510 LICENSE APPLICATION SUMD�ABY Date: 09/15/98 LicenseTD: #19980002267 License Applicant: Gregg Perkins 634 Snellang Avenue N. License Type: Fireanns License Conditions: See Attachment Reqirements: 1) Applicarion & Fees 2) Zoning Approval 3) Fire - C of O Approval 4) Record Check Pending Adverse Actions: None Cnrrent Licensee: Gregg Perkins Second Hand Dealer License Expiration 70/14/1998 Met Yes Yes Yes Yes �$-��H Telephone.'612-266-9090 Fatsimtle: 612-?66-9099 b11-366-97Z4 q B .g6� CONDITIONS FOR ST PAUL FIREARMS COMPANY 634 S\ELLING AVE N (GREGG FERKINS} 1. The floor azea devoted to the sale of guns and anununirion may not exceed 50% of the gross floor area af the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed ihe majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonable format deemed acceptable by this office for the purpose of determining the percenta�e of business derived from the sale of firearms and anmiunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federal law ar regulation relating to the sa1e, possession, use, transportarion, discharge or storage of fireanns or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as requSred by applicable state and federal law and regulations (including MN Stat. 624.7161). 5. No person under 18 shall be permitted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shail be pemutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of'state or federal law ox regulations. The a�e of all firearms purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License or other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shall be allowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireanns in the store windows wluch are visible to passersby on the street. 7. Licensee shall seli all firearnis and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall consritute sufficient grounds for adverse action against ali licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. y�-��- MII�TLTTSS OF THE LEGISLATIVE HEARING 5T. PAUL FII2EARMS, 634 SNELLING AVENLTE NORTH September 16, 1998 Room 330, City Ha11 Gerry Strathman, Legislafive Hearing O�cer Gerry Strathman called the meeting to order at 10:02 a.m. Staff Present: Christine Rozek, License, Inspections, Environmental Protection (LIEP); Lawrence Zangs, LIEP Gerry Strathman stated this is a hearing on behalf of the City Council. The purpose of this hearing is to take testimony regarding objections that have been raised to the issuance of a Class 3 Firearms License to Gregg Perkins at 634 Sneliing Avenue North. Mr. Perkins has received copies of all written objections. Mr. Strathman will make one of three recommendations at the end of this hearing: 1) If the objections aze wholly without merit, the recommendation will be the license should be appxoved; 2) ff there are conditions added to the license that aze acceptable to the people making the objections and to the license holder, then the recommendation will be approval of the license with conditions; 3) A recommendarion ta the Council that this matter be teferred to an Administrarive Law Judge (ALJ) for a complete hearing to deternune issue of fact and law that would be used to inform the City Council in making their fmal decision on this matter. Christine Rozek reported all the requirements have been met: the applications and fees have been submitted, zoning has been approved, the Fire Department has approved the certificate of occupancy, and a record check has been done and it is fine. There are no pending adverse actions against the license. The cunent licensee is Gregg Perkins who has a second hand dealer license which expires IQ-14-98. The recommendation of LIEP is approval with eight conditions, which are as follows: 1. The floor area devoCed to the sale of guns and ammuni6on may not exceed 50% of the gross floar area of the business. 2. The sale of fireanns and ammunition may not exceed the majority of the annual gross sales of the business. The license holder will provide annual sales information in a reasonabie format deemed acceptable by this office far the purpose of deternuning the percentage of business derived from the sale of firearms and ammunition. 3. Licensee shall commit no violation of any local, state or federallaw or regulation relating to the sale, possession, use, transportation, discharge or storage of firearms or weapons on the licensed premises. Any violation of this or any other of the following conditions is grounds for adverse action, including revocation of the license. 4. Licensee shall keep all weapons, firearms and ammunition in the licensed premises under security systems as required by applicable state and federallaw and regulations (including NiN Stat. 62A.7161). y � �� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PALTL FIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 2 5. No persons under 18 shall be pernutted to purchase any rifle or shotgun or any other fireann or weapon and no person under 21 shall be pernutted to purchase any handgun or pistol in violation of state or federal law or regulaUons. The age of all fireanns purchasers, where there is a need or requirement to deternune age, shall be ascertained prior to sale by demanding a MN Driver's License ar other suitable picture ID. No person under the age of 18 shali be aliowed to remain on the licensed premises unless accompanied by an adult. 6. Licensee shall not display any weapons or fireazms in the store windows which ate visible to passerbys on the street. 7. Licensee shall set all firearms and weapons in strict compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations. 8. Violation of any of the foregoing conditions shall constitute sufficient grounds for adverse action against all licenses held by the licensee, in addition to any other grounds for adverse action allowed by law. Christine Rozek stated these conditions have not been presented to the licensee nor agreed to by the licensee. Lawrence Zangs stated he is a zoning specialist and met the attorney Dave Feinwachs at the property. A measurement was taken of the area where firearms would be sold versus the second hand dealer antique merchandise. Mr. Zangs' calculations would put the area devoted to fireazms sales at 39'/i% of the floor azea. The gun shop definition is 50% of the area, therefore the store is in compliance with the zoning ordinance. Kathieen Winters, 14&3 Breda Avenue, appeared and asked was everything included in the measurement, office space, restroom, etc., when the gross floor space was calculated. Gerry Strathman stated the implications is that the restroom, office space, and storage areas are being contributed to non firearms space in the calculations. Larry Zangs responded the gross store area includes the restroom, bathroom, etc. Mr. Stratbman stated it is 39% of the square footage of the building space, but it would be more than 39% of the retail space. He asked how much retail space there is excluding bathroom, storage, offices, etc. Mr. Zangs responded he can figure for restrooms, however the office area is just a desk in the corner. Mr. Strathman stated if the restroom space is subtracted, less than 50% of the space is devoted to firearm sales. Mr. Zangs stating he could run some calculations, but agreed with Mr. Strathman's estimate. Laura Melnick, 1697 Englewood Avenue, speaking on behalf of the Hamline Midway Neighborhood Stability Coalition, appeared and went over the three primary reasons the license should be denied. 1) The Firearms Dealers license should be denied because the applicant intends to use sham sales to meet the gross annual sales requirement. The applicant and his atCorney indicated, in prior proceedings and in public, an intentlon to maintain compliance wlth the code by inflating sales. At the end of the compliance year, if the sale of firearm items is creeping over 50% of gross annual sales, the applicanYs friends will purchase non fireanns items to inflate the sales. The licensee has indicated in the past a desire to create a outlet store outside the City limits to funnei sales of firearms to keep gross sales under 50%. 2) The license should � I.EGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL PIREARMS, 9-16-98 Page 3 be denied because the applicant cannot be trusted to meet the zoning codes floor space requirement. In 1996, the applicant altered the shop's floar plan shortly after an inspection by L1EP. Members of the coalition were invited to come in and measure; the measurements showed a distinct variauon than the measurement tal:en by Mr. Zangs. The applicant has been quoted as saying there are ways of getting around the law. 3) The applicant is not a fit licensee. He has gone out of his way to inflame neigJ�borhood tensions. The applicant has taken actions appalling to the general public. Offensive signs have been put in the window. There is not a sufficient number of facts to wanant the expenditure of money and time involved in a new hearing before an ALJ. Joe Petroski, 1636 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated he has lived in this neighborhood since 1991. Mr. Peuoski is a business owner himself. There should be more of an investigation into this license. There was no basis for Gregg Perkins to get his license initially. Mr. Perkins received his license because he took it. He did not do anything appropriately. There is no need for the residents to be here. According to the crime reports, there was not much crime in the axea before this gun shop opened for business. There were two break ins at the property in wbich 19 guns were stolen. The neighborhood is doing well, but Mr. Perkins is bringing Che neighborhood down. Laura Sweney, 1424 Sherburne Avenue, appeazed and stated the neighborhood is saying they have been through this situation enough times. Gregg Perkins is continuing to harass the neighbors. Ae is hurting the ability far residents to feel safe in the neighborhood. Ms. Sweney feels Mr. Perkins bates the people in Saint Paul and the people in the dist�ict, Heidi Wrenson, 1794 Hewitt Avenue, appeazed and stated she has lived in the neighborhood for ten years. It is ctucial for her to raise her chiidren in a socially and economically mixed neighborhood thaC is safe. A firearms store is frightening. Ms. Wrenson had some sympathy in the beginning because she comes from a working class family of people who have started sma11 businesses. The taunting with the signs has changed her attitude taward the store. The Nazi memorabilia bothers her. Karen Chupot, 1500 Minnehaha Avenue West, appeared and stated the community has said no to this issue. The Hamline Midway area received a large grant a few years ago because the area met all the criteria of a neighborhood in trouble. The residents have worked hazd to keep the neighborhood stable. Studies show violence is part oP the accessibility of f3rearms. Davad Gagne, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeared and stated the issue of pubiic safety is a united effort by all the businesses. In February, there was an escalation of the antagonism among Gregg Perkins, Dave Feinwachs, and the neighborhood. Part of Mr. Gagne's job is visiting every business in the strip to talk to them about the problems and crime in the area. Last November through February, theze was an increase in violence in 11 businesses along the street. Mr. Gagne notified businesses of what they could do to protect themselves. Mr. Gagne entered St. Paul Firearms and left his business cazd. He received a phone message from Mr. Feinwachs who y �-�� LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAUL FII2EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 4 indicated Mr. GaD e shouid no longer enter the store, he should no longer attempt to talk to Mr. Perkins, and should only deal with Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne was also called a name by Mr. Feinwachs. Mr. Gagne feels the presence of a business that does not want to work with the neighborhood effects the safety of the neighborhood and the businesses. Jody Bentley, Hamline Midway Coalition, appeazed and stated she has three points to express: 1) Hamline Midway Coalition Boazd of Directars objects to the issuance of this license based on the peCition. The business is a nuisance. 2) The community is trying Co keep Snelling Avenue a vital corridor. 3) The business is located next to a playground which is across the street from the fireatms store. It has been a relief to have the inventory of firearms and related items gone. Ms. Bentley stated te notice of this hearing was sent out too late for her to find out how people are reacting to this business. Bill Maloney, 1744 Hewitk Avenue, appeared and stated given that Gerry Strathman cannot do anything but recommend that this matter be turned over to an ALJ, Mr. Maloney supports this decision. This issue is a matter of trust. Mr. Maloney said aC tbe first community meetina that trust was earned and not bestowed. Gregg Perlins has not been able to build trust in the community during his years of operating a business there. (There being no one else to speak in opposirion, the license holder and his representative spoke next.) Dave Feinwachs, attorney for Gregg Perkins and St. Paul Firearms Company, appeazed. He admitted that he did call David Gagne a name. Aowever, the issue here is a group of people who dislike Gregg Perkins. None of this is relevant Yo the issue of this license. Most of the people of the community are fine. The Hamline Midway Coalition feels if their members do not like a particulaz business, then that business cannot operate in the neighborhood. The coalition went to Mr. Perkins and other business owners to tell them that crime had run rampant in the neighborhood because of this business. As for sham sales, business owners are seldom patronized by their enemies. If Mr. Perkins was not patronized by his friends, he would not have stayed in business. As for opening an outlet store outside Saint Paul, Mr. Perkins has every right to do that if he would like. Saint Paul has no jurisdiction outside iYs boundaries. The notion the applicant is not a fit licensee because he makes fun of these people or because they dislike each other is not a reason to deny the license. Mr. Perkins does not have to pay homage to the coalition, pay a membership fee, or do what they want in order to have a business in the neighborhood. The coalition does not run the community. Mr. Feinwachs stated his client has a complete, well developed record as a result af two hearings. There aze numerous findings. There are no facts in controversy. This shouid guide Gerry Strathman's actions. Gerry Strathman asked were the eight conditions suggested by the LIEP acceptabie. Dave Feinwachs responded these are the same conditions always imposed on the license. The conditions are accepted. If the owner and he decide to challenge the conditions, they will do so in court at a later date. y � s�� LEGISLATIVE HEAR.IIVG FOR ST. PAUL FIR.EARMS, 9-16-98 Page 5 Gregg Perkins, owner, appeared and stated there are problems between his attorney and the neighbors. In 1993, Mr. Perkins attended a neighborhood meeting. People hollered in his face and made obscene gestures. Mr. Perkins stated he did not expect that reacfion. Other City officials apologized for the behavior. Mr. Perkins stated he has tried to be a gracious neighbor. David Gagne has entered the store and spoke to Mr. Perkins on several occasions. If there is a problem between Mr. Gagne and Mr. Perkins, Mr. Perkins does not think he can do anything about iY. Mr. Perkins takes issue wlYh ihe widespread issue of his firearms store. He has many friends and customers. Not everyone shares the views of the group that is opposing him. All requirements have been met. The laws to protect him seem nothing to the coalition. The coalifion speaks of diversity and tolerance, but they act in a different way. Mr. Perkins asked what interest is a business community if it is not diverse. There seems to be an effort by a small group of people that want to exclude certain types of businesses and include other. Mr. Perkins stated he does not have an as to grind, but he does have a business he would like to run. Gerry Strathman stated there will be one more opporiunity for people to speak. Kathieen Winter stated Gregg Perkins indicated that if there are tensions between business and his attorney, it is because of his attorney. When there is a representation relationship, it is tough for the client to disavow what the attorney says on the clienYs behalf. The City Council had detemuned the client is not a fit ]icensee because the owner has operated the business in a matter intentionally calculated to annoy the neighborhood. The Council has a right to expect that persons liaensed ta sell firearms do not deliberately pick fights with neighbors and seek to inflame community tensions for mean spirited reasons. As for sham sales, the City Council said it was not reasonable to expend the kind of resources to check on this business to ensure it will stay in compliance. The owners have said repeatedly they intent to bring friends in to boost sales if they need to. 7oe Petrowski stated the owner and his representative do not care about the community. The attomey said they will not contest the conditions now, but may at a later date, therefore they ue pushing the law. It is tme that t6e Hatnline Midway Coalition was organized_ If the owner was honest up front, the business would be okay. Mr. Petrowski stated he does not belong to the coalition, however he has called City Council members and told them he does not want the business in the neighborhood. Dave Feinwachs stated nothing has changed since the last application. The City gave Gregg Perkins his first license. The evidence of this is the videotape of the City Counci] meeting. There were days of hearings. Mr. Perkins has done nothing wrong in five years except for having the bad judgement of leaving his brother-in-law in the store who sold cigarettes to a minor. There are no facts in controversy. It is position of the people here that they have to like Mr. Perkins in order for him to have a business. Garty Strathman asked the group do the conditions lead them to drop their opposition to the issuance of this license. Laura Melnick responded most of the conditions are part of State ar City 1 y LEGISLATIVE HEARING FOR ST. PAiJL FIREt1RMS, 9-16-98 Page 6 law. These conditions are similar to what was on the license in the past. Mr. Strathman asked would other conditions lead them to drop their objections. Ms. Melnick responded no given the history and the complete lack of trust in the appiicanYs abIliry to comply with any conditions. Mr. Strathman asked was she a spokesperson for the group. (The D oup indicated that she was.) Without making findings of fact or law, Mr. Strathman concluded there is a reasonable basis to conclude there may be grounds for rejecting this license. Gerry Strathman recommended to the City Council that this matter be referred to an Administrative Law Judge to make the appropriate determinations of fact and law in order for them to make the final decision regarding issuance of this licanse. The meefing was adjoumed at 11:17 a.m. rrn